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  1. #21
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Aren't visual-spatials the majority though?
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    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Aren't visual-spatials the majority though?

    In Dyslexia-absolutely
    In neurotypicals-absolutely not
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    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Source Visual thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Dyslexia

    Individuals use a variety of learning styles or strategies, among these are auditory, kineasthetic and visual-spatial learning, which are associated with the sensory organs (receptors), sensory system and sense, respectively ears with hearing, eyes with sight, skin, limbs and bodily movements with touch and body gestures. Research suggests that dyslexia is a symptom of a predominant visual/spatial learning from the earliest studies, circa 1896 -1925 by Morgan (1896), Hinselwood (1900) and Orton (1925). Morgan used the term 'word blindness,' in 1896; Hinselwood expanded on 'word blindness' to describe the reversing of letters and similar phenomenon in 1900s; Orton suggested that individuals have difficulty associating the visual with the verbal form of words, in 1925. Further studies using technologies (PET and MRI) and wider and varied user groups in various languages support the earlier findings. see dyslexia. Visual-spatial symptoms (dyslexia, dyspraxia, Auditory Processing Disorder (APD) and the like) arise in non-visual and non-spatial environments and situations; hence, visual/spatial learning is aggravated by an education system based upon information presented in written text instead of presented via multimedia and hands-on experience.
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  4. #24
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    In Dyslexia-absolutely
    In neurotypicals-absolutely not
    No, I'm pretty sure research says that visual-spatials are the majority, and auditory learners are the minority. I think the breakdown went something like 45% visualspatial 35% audial and the rest kinesthetic. Then again in that case it might depend on your definition of majority.
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  5. #25
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    No, I'm pretty sure research says that visual-spatials are the majority, and auditory learners are the minority. I think the breakdown went something like 45% visualspatial 35% audial and the rest kinesthetic. Then again in that case it might depend on your definition of majority.

    I'm talking of right or left brained dominance, i'll refer back to wiki


    "Brain function lateralization is evident in the phenomena of right- or left-handedness and of right or left ear preference, but a person's preferred hand is not a clear indication of the location of brain function. Although 95% of right-handed people have left-hemisphere dominance for language, only 18.8% of left-handed people have right-hemisphere dominance for language function. Additionally, 19.8% of the left-handed have bilateral language functions.[5] Even within various language functions (e.g., semantics, syntax, prosody), degree (and even hemisphere) of dominance may differ[6]."


    Lateralization of brain function - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Do you have a link for the stats you quoted?
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  6. #26
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    No, I'm pretty sure research says that visual-spatials are the majority, and auditory learners are the minority. I think the breakdown went something like 45% visualspatial 35% audial and the rest kinesthetic. Then again in that case it might depend on your definition of majority.
    I've seen this as well - in fact I've seen visual learners quoted as high as 60-65 percent of the population. I think we need to bear in mind though that the definitions are not consistent at all, and are probably being established by completely different means. At minimum, a clear distinction needs to be drawn between the high frequency in the population of visual learners (those who prefer to use the sensory modality of sight in order to take in information) and the much less common visual thinkers - those who formulate thoughts predominantly according to the organisation of visual images. Visual learning encompasses the capability for translating visual imagery into other forms they are comfortable with and can then retain, such as the auditory/sequential modality (which corresponds with the sequential/linear process I described earlier). Visual thinking , regardless of how the information is taken in, prefers to organise it as imagery and relate the imagery to concepts. Now for a little of the promised scientific evidence:

    The neurological origins of visual and spatial thinking as a perceptual process, rather than a sense-input process, appear to be closely linked, and a clear distinction difficult to draw between the two; this corresponds to my conflation of the likely preference for 2 and 3 dimensional perception in dyslexic people in my earlier posts.

    Both visual and spatial thinking appear to be associated with the right frontal regions of the brain, particularly the right frontal cortex and right temporal lobe. This area, along with Broca's area in the left frontal cortex (which particularly governs speech production) are known to be strongly activated in many dyslexic individuals who are attempting to read, whereas in non-dyslexic individuals the typically activated areas are in the left brain; particularly an area commonly referred to as the Visual Word Form Recognition area in the left occipital region near the eyes (which directly processes visual input), and Wernicke's area (which is linked with word/meaning association and auditory comprehension) in the left temporal lobe of the midbrain.

    This is to say that it appears that the typical non-dyslexic reading strategy is to recognise the visual elements of words and associate them with sounds and their meanings in a sequential manner, as when listening to speech; wheras the typical dyslexic strategy is to process as visual or spatial information and link it not to sounds, but concepts. This may (hypothetically) be an image or spatial/textural forming process in relation to the words and symbols read. What's interesting in this regard is that although diagnosed dyslexic readers can with practice at phonetics and word recognition learn to increase their activation of the VWFR region and Wernicke's area, so crucial to reading comprehension in non-dyslexics, this does not seem to bring about a corresponding improvement in reading ability - in line with what would be expected, for instance, in poor non-dyslexic readers who also show reduced activation of these areas and can increase them through practice. The typical pattern for dyslexic individuals who learn to read fluently is instead to show increased activation of the areas they naturally use; increased reliance on left brain regions that would usually be essential in non-dyslexic readers is actually negatively correlated with improved reading skills.

    I think this issue therefore transcends how information is taken in (after all, everyone uses visual means to process written language) and has more to do with the preferential method by which information is actually organised in the brain.
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  7. #27
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I've seen this as well - in fact I've seen visual learners quoted as high as 60-65 percent of the population.
    I think this only emphasizes the fact that a multi-sensory learning approach, if adopted by schools, would benefit everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I think we need to bear in mind though that the definitions are not consistent at all, and are probably being established by completely different means. At minimum, a clear distinction needs to be drawn between the high frequency in the population of visual learners (those who prefer to use the sensory modality of sight in order to take in information) and the much less common visual thinkers - those who formulate thoughts predominantly according to the organisation of visual images. Visual learning encompasses the capability for translating visual imagery into other forms they are comfortable with and can then retain, such as the auditory/sequential modality (which corresponds with the sequential/linear process I described earlier). Visual thinking , regardless of how the information is taken in, prefers to organise it as imagery and relate the imagery to concepts. Now for a little of the promised scientific evidence:

    The neurological origins of visual and spatial thinking as a perceptual process, rather than a sense-input process, appear to be closely linked, and a clear distinction difficult to draw between the two; this corresponds to my conflation of the likely preference for 2 and 3 dimensional perception in dyslexic people in my earlier posts.

    Both visual and spatial thinking appear to be associated with the right frontal regions of the brain, particularly the right frontal cortex and right temporal lobe. This area, along with Broca's area in the left frontal cortex (which particularly governs speech production) are known to be strongly activated in many dyslexic individuals who are attempting to read, whereas in non-dyslexic individuals the typically activated areas are in the left brain; particularly an area commonly referred to as the Visual Word Form Recognition area in the left occipital region near the eyes (which directly processes visual input), and Wernicke's area (which is linked with word/meaning association and auditory comprehension) in the left temporal lobe of the midbrain.
    Yes, it is beneficial to get a clear idea of exactly which brain regions we are talking about, do you have that link with the brain imaging? or could you post the images?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    This is to say that it appears that the typical non-dyslexic reading strategy is to recognise the visual elements of words and associate them with sounds and their meanings in a sequential manner, as when listening to speech; wheras the typical dyslexic strategy is to process as visual or spatial information and link it not to sounds, but concepts. This may (hypothetically) be an image or spatial/textural forming process in relation to the words and symbols read. What's interesting in this regard is that although diagnosed dyslexic readers can with practice at phonetics and word recognition learn to increase their activation of the VWFR region and Wernicke's area, so crucial to reading comprehension in non-dyslexics, this does not seem to bring about a corresponding improvement in reading ability - in line with what would be expected, for instance, in poor non-dyslexic readers who also show reduced activation of these areas and can increase them through practice. The typical pattern for dyslexic individuals who learn to read fluently is instead to show increased activation of the areas they naturally use; increased reliance on left brain regions that would usually be essential in non-dyslexic readers is actually negatively correlated with improved reading skills.
    Yes increased reading ability in dyslexics shows a higher activation in the right hemisphere rather than in the left which is how it shows in non-dyslexics. Showing that dyslexics infact use their own methods of memorising text visually as opposed to the linear sequential left brain style.


    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    I think this issue therefore transcends how information is taken in (after all, everyone uses visual means to process written language) and has more to do with the preferential method by which information is actually organised in the brain.
    You know what surprises me more than anything is that the majority of dyslexic individuals i have meet/know, probably because their talents have been largely ignored or mis-understood, do not actually realise they they think so differently (and often in more advanced ways) than non-dyslexics.
    The classic response is that they believe everyone is a picture thinker but they are inherently incapable of learning as much as non-dyslexics. This saddens me greatly and is one of the fundamental reasons for my interest in dyslexia.

    I am happy to find that most dyslexia organisations do now take the stance that dyslexia is a learning difference, and affects "average to above average intellegence" individuals. Of course i don't agree entirely, i personally think there is much more to it (since iq tests do not take into account the learning differences), but at the very least there seems to be movement, albeit slow, in recognising the positives.

    For example, my son who is severely dyslexic, tests as above average intelligence on a full psychological iq test. This is because the results of all the subtest are combined to form a whole. If sequencing, phonic awareness, spelling, word recognition are added to areas such as block design, visual spatial reasoning, non verbal reasoning etc then the whole will reflect a somewhat lower score than his actual intelligence. This is because the test is biased towards individuals who typically learn in a non-dyslexic way.
    If you take all the parts of the test that rely on the areas of the brain that typical dyslexics use then you will have a result in the gifted range.

    This however does not solve the problem of how to help dyslexic individuals learn how to read and write at primary school age or indeed the daily difficulties non-school related such as time management, short term memory and low self esteem due to awful treatment at schools/work etc.

    For this we need to switch to a mode of education that will actually benefit dyslexic individuals and cater to their learning style. And to do that we need an overhaul of the education system as it stands, or at least the curriculum.

    In short we need to bring about change.
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  8. #28
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    I just found an interesting scientific article recognising abilities in dyslexia

    quote

    "This finding suggests that dyslexia is associated with a particular type of visual-spatial talent—enhanced ability to process visual-spatial information globally (holistically) rather than locally (part by part)."


    Source

    ScienceDirect - Brain and Language : Dyslexia linked to talent: Global visual-spatial ability*1
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  9. #29
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    I haven't had time to read this whole thread (yet) but I'm affected by dyslexia, too. My oldest has dyslexia and my daughter has auditory processing disorders. I started using the internet back in '95 b/c I was trying to seek out more information about (there wasn't a lot available but it rapidly increased...those were the days when you could email and talk to specialists on forums without worrying about spam, being charged a fee, viruses...I digress). There was a wealth of information coming out at that time about phonemic awareness and dyslexic students lacking in this and what to do about it.

    Anyway, we were able to get him a partial scholarship to a private school and they used the Wilson program and they also used Lindamood-Bell LiPS program. I have noted that people with accents or learning foreign language would benefit from using a system like that. Even so, he does not read to this very day without putting a good bit of effort in to it. It is nice to see him pick up a book to read but he doesn't do it often.

    My daughter was a little more complicated. Her auditory processing test showed that she had right-ear dominance (despite being firmly right-handed). Her results were so unusual that a doctor at Howard U asked me to get the raw data from the test and send it to him. He looked over it carefully and let me know that one of her biggest problems was going to be sound-to-symbol and symbol-to-sound understanding. He also said that even after this was overcome that she would always be a few steps behind when she had to process auditory information. It would improve with age (she was close to 8 at the time of the test) but it would always be a little off.

    One of the biggest tip-offs for both of them was their speech. Late talkers, problems with articulation, problems with following directions, lack of interest in books or being read to, using me as a translator when speaking to or more importantly, when someone is speaking to them.... A lot of parents, me included, are told that they will grow out of it...not necessarily true. And it needs to be jumped on early. The old principal of my son's school is now a director over a screening program at a children's hospital. They screen high-risk children for dyslexia and other processing problems ages 3-5. I wish they had had something like that when my son and daughter were little. FWIW, the other two show absolutely no signs of any type of processing problem at all.

    Let me stop here...I could go on for days about this.

  10. #30
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I haven't had time to read this whole thread (yet) but I'm affected by dyslexia, too. My oldest has dyslexia and my daughter has auditory processing disorders. I started using the internet back in '95 b/c I was trying to seek out more information about (there wasn't a lot available but it rapidly increased...those were the days when you could email and talk to specialists on forums without worrying about spam, being charged a fee, viruses...I digress). There was a wealth of information coming out at that time about phonemic awareness and dyslexic students lacking in this and what to do about it.
    Although i was aware of dyslexia, my knowledge was very basic at this stage, it wasn't until 2005 (a whole 10 years after yourself) that i started to do some research myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Anyway, we were able to get him a partial scholarship to a private school and they used the Wilson program and they also used Lindamood-Bell LiPS program. I have noted that people with accents or learning foreign language would benefit from using a system like that. Even so, he does not read to this very day without putting a good bit of effort in to it. It is nice to see him pick up a book to read but he doesn't do it often.
    From what little i know the wilson program is not too bad, it has a strong emphasis on multisensory learning and visual imagination. Of course it depends on who is teaching it and how well they teach it, but it certainly sounds like you did very well for him at the time. I'd certainly chose the wilson program over jolly phonics.

    I'm not familiar with the Lindamood-bell lips program, was this for your daughter? It seems to have a strong emphasis on phonics (based on a quick look at their site), which always worries me with dyslexia as, for the majority of dyslexic individuals, it frustrates rather than helps their progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    My daughter was a little more complicated. Her auditory processing test showed that she had right-ear dominance (despite being firmly right-handed). Her results were so unusual that a doctor at Howard U asked me to get the raw data from the test and send it to him. He looked over it carefully and let me know that one of her biggest problems was going to be sound-to-symbol and symbol-to-sound understanding. He also said that even after this was overcome that she would always be a few steps behind when she had to process auditory information. It would improve with age (she was close to 8 at the time of the test) but it would always be a little off.
    I can offer nothing on auditory processing differences, i do know though that it can affect dyslexic individuals too, and it does sound partly similar in description. I rather suspect that you have done the best for her also. I do wonder if having this alone would also affect brain dominance, and think that a multisensory approach would be helpful. Did she have any specilaist programs to help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    One of the biggest tip-offs for both of them was their speech. Late talkers, problems with articulation, problems with following directions, lack of interest in books or being read to, using me as a translator when speaking to or more importantly, when someone is speaking to them.... A lot of parents, me included, are told that they will grow out of it...not necessarily true. And it needs to be jumped on early.
    I wonder if you noted any things which seemed to indicate they had high intelligence befor reading/nursery age? For example were they unusually good at lego, puzzles, problem solving, visual memory in card games such as pairs, making things.
    There are often signs of good visual imagination as well as the negatives which get picked up on when they start nursery or school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    The old principal of my son's school is now a director over a screening program at a children's hospital. They screen high-risk children for dyslexia and other processing problems ages 3-5. I wish they had had something like that when my son and daughter were little. FWIW, the other two show absolutely no signs of any type of processing problem at all.

    Let me stop here...I could go on for days about this.

    Thats fantastic, where is that?
    And do go on, thats what this thread is for.
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