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The Opposite of Truth

Jaguar

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My buddy's girlfriend is only partially pregnant. He's relieved she's not completely pregnant.
 

Poki

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Morgan:

An example. What if I said that 2+2= 10. This statement is obviously false. If I say that this is true, the lie that I generated, when analyzed, would reveal the truth. This works when someone knows the answer is false, but the other knows what should be considered true and what shouldn't, but doesn't know directly that this answer is false. They have to analyze why the lie is a lie thus showing the truth. Does that explain it better? The analyzation aspect is the Ti. Going through logically and discerning why 2+2=/=10.

If I were another type I would question why you dont know what 2+2 is. Oh thats right your smart:doh: I shouldnt question that:D
 

Salomé

meh
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Morgan:

An example. What if I said that 2+2= 10. This statement is obviously false. If I say that this is true, the lie that I generated, when analyzed, would reveal the truth. This works when someone knows the answer is false, but the other knows what should be considered true and what shouldn't, but doesn't know directly that this answer is false. They have to analyze why the lie is a lie thus showing the truth. Does that explain it better? The analyzation aspect is the Ti. Going through logically and discerning why 2+2=/=10.
I'm sorry, I still don't get it. Why would you say something that is obviously false?
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
It was part of the example. I suppose it could be used as a method of teaching. The teacher knows why 2+2=/=10, but the student may not and so in order to get the student to think about why this isn't true they would have analyze it. The goal of the lie was to ultimately get towards the truth that 2+2=4 and not 10. He made a false statement in order to get there. This may also be perceived as Fe, but I wouldn't think so because their isn't a social dynamic just a logical one, but apparently my definitions of this system are still flawed.

Poki- Sarcasm?

Jag- Thank god! Otherwise he'd have to be a full-time parent. Now he only has to worry about part of a child.
 

Poki

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It was part of the example. I suppose it could be used as a method of teaching. The teacher knows why 2+2=/=10, but the student may not and so in order to get the student to think about why this isn't true they would have analyze it. The goal of the lie was to ultimately get towards the truth that 2+2=4 and not 10. He made a false statement in order to get there. This may also be perceived as Fe, but I wouldn't think so because their isn't a social dynamic just a logical one, but apparently my definitions of this system are still flawed.

Poki- Sarcasm?

Jag- Thank god! Otherwise he'd have to be a full-time parent. Now he only has to worry about part of a child.

Yeah, I cant follow your train of thought like Jag did. I actually thought he was telling the truth until I put pencil to paper and realized "wait...how do you become half pregnant" All I came up with is that my wife was full pregnant so his buddy must be half the man I am.
 

Salomé

meh
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It was part of the example. I suppose it could be used as a method of teaching. The teacher knows why 2+2=/=10, but the student may not and so in order to get the student to think about why this isn't true they would have analyze it. The goal of the lie was to ultimately get towards the truth that 2+2=4 and not 10. He made a false statement in order to get there. This may also be perceived as Fe, but I wouldn't think so because their isn't a social dynamic just a logical one, but apparently my definitions of this system are still flawed.
People teach math in this way?:huh:

This is not a good example. If the teacher is (implicitly or explicitly) trying to get the student to an understanding of the truth of 2+2=4, then no deceit, and therefore, no lie is involved.
That's not to say that Fe isn't involved. But let's not make this any muddier than it has to be. :)
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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I was trying to find a way that a Ti could be a motivator. Obviously it's not easy to do.
 

Jaguar

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Yeah, I cant follow your train of thought like Jag did. I actually thought he was telling the truth until I put pencil to paper and realized "wait...how do you become half pregnant" All I came up with is that my wife was full pregnant so his buddy must be half the man I am.

You crack the shit out of me, bro. :D *still laughing*
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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Destroying preconceived notions is quite difficult. Someone has to do it though! :)
 

Wonkavision

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As far as Introverted Thinking being so "objective" and "truthful", lets see what Carl Jung had to say about that:

Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor....It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins with the subject and leads back to the subject, far though it may range into the realm of actual reality....Facts are collected as evidence for a theory, never for their own sakes. (C. G. Jung, Psychological Types, 380.)

Eat that, suckas!!!!!! :workout:



****EDIT: Matter of fact, I think that quote deserves a whole thread of it's own. :D
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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This is the reason why Ti is so personal. This function takes external facts and creates a system that is understood by the organizer. This is why Ti can have a hard time being explained. We understood how we organized the structure, but others might not see the connections between our structure. It's our logic not the logic, but the aim of Ti is to find the true function of an object through analysis.
 

redacted

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As far as Introverted Thinking being so "objective" and "truthful", lets see what Carl Jung had to say about that:



Eat that, suckas!!!!!! :workout:



****EDIT: Matter of fact, I think that quote deserves a whole thread of it's own. :D

It is truthful...just truthful about the users subjective experience. Te is more obviously truthful because it focuses on the current environment.

The logical structure isn't any different, though... the premises are just less obvious for Ti.
 

Wonkavision

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It is truthful...just truthful about the users subjective experience. Te is more obviously truthful because it focuses on the current environment.

The logical structure isn't any different, though... the premises are just less obvious for Ti.

Yeah, I can buy that.

Of course that amounts to not a whole hell of a lot, since that could apply to ANY function.
 

redacted

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No one is born with functioning Fe - cultural ideas about socially appropriate behaviour have to be internalised over time.

Just so you know, this is why you have interpreted me wrong this whole thread.

Fe is just value-judgments based on the external situation.

Fe functions fine as a child.

Maybe a person's interpretation of an external situation becomes more normative over time, but it doesn't mean they don't use Fe before then.

Interpreting what the external situation actually IS isn't really in Fe's scope.
 

Wonkavision

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Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay:
No one is born with functioning Fe - cultural ideas about socially appropriate behaviour have to be internalised over time.

Holy shit!!! :D

Morgan---

You realize people are actually READING this nonsense, right?

Have you no SHAME????


You are un-be-lievable. Oh my GOD. :rofl1:
 

Salomé

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Just so you know, this is why you have interpreted me wrong this whole thread.

Fe is just value-judgments based on the external situation.

Fe functions fine as a child.

Maybe a person's interpretation of an external situation becomes more normative over time, but it doesn't mean they don't use Fe before then.

Interpreting what the external situation actually IS isn't really in Fe's scope.
Actually, it is you who has misinterpreted me for much of the thread. You're still doing it. No one is born with the ability to even understand where "me" ends and the external world begins. Child development 101.

And that is an inaccurate definition of Fe. It is about what is important to others and what is appropriate to a given situation.

'Value judgements about an external situation' can just as easily be made by Introverted Feeling. Orientation and source are not the same thing. In fact, all "situations" are external if you think about it.
 

redacted

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Actually, it is you who has misinterpreted me for much of the thread. You're still doing it. No one is born with the ability to even understand where "me" ends and the external world begins. Child development 101.

And that is an inaccurate definition of Fe. It is about what is important to others and what is appropriate to a given situation.

'Value judgements about an external situation' can just as easily be made by Introverted Feeling. Orientation and source are not the same thing. In fact, all "situations" are external if you think about it.

:doh:

Of course all situations are external, but then you lose the descriptive usefulness of the i/e distinction.

When Fe and Fi do the same thing, why call them something different?

Feeling is conscious and value-oriented. If the person using Feeling is more comfortable with external premises, they prefer Fe. If the person using Feeling is more comfortable with their own personal premises, they prefer Fi.

Fe users will feel uncomfortable making a value-claim without knowing all of the factors around them.

Fi users will view the factors around them as irrelevant, and will think (the normal dictionary definition) through their personal value-judgment in more depth.

Other people, societal values, that kind of shit -- that's surface level stuff -- those are manifestations of what the actual difference between the two really is.

A 5-year old can be a clear Fe user even if they know nothing about "social values". They use Fe as long as they think looking at the external situation is more relevant to a value judgment than looking internally is.

You can nitpick my terms "external" and "internal" all you want, but you'd be missing my point.
 

Salomé

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When Fe and Fi do the same thing, why call them something different?
...because they don't do the same thing. Any more than Te and Ti or Ne and Ni....
But *sigh* let's not get into that.

A 5-year old can be a clear Fe user even if they know nothing about "social values". They use Fe as long as they think looking at the external situation is more relevant to a value judgment than looking internally is.
Fe is not about looking at external situations. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's perceiving, not judging. Fe is about valuing external standards. I'm not making this shit up. It's textbook. And I'm not nit-picking. It's fundamental to an understanding of the theory.

If a 5y/o is using Fe, it's because they've already started to absorb and identify what those standards are or what other's needs are. This imprinting process starts very early (but not before birth - obviously).

Anyway, this thread has been a huge a waste of time. But thanks for trying to stick with it.
 

Jaguar

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A 5-year old can be a clear Fe user even if they know nothing about "social values". They use Fe as long as they think looking at the external situation is more relevant to a value judgment than looking internally is.

Fe is not about looking at external situations. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's perceiving, not judging. Fe is about valuing external standards. I'm not making this shit up. It's textbook. And I'm not nit-picking. It's fundamental to an understanding of the theory.

Attention K-Mart Shoppers, there is a Blue Light Special in aisle 9:

There is not one textbook, and there is not one theory. I will quote from one of many textbooks:

"Fe is a decision-making process. It focuses on the objective, external world."

Key features:

  • Is an objective decision-making process that seeks to create or maintain harmony in the environment.
  • Has an outer focus that is primarily about people and their relationships.
  • Views people, events, situations, and objects in terms of their effects on people.
  • Is actively concerned for others' needs, desires, and values.
  • Prefers to avoid outward conflict, but can become unyielding in situations involving a threat to another person.
  • Establishes and maintains social conventions.
  • Is driven to interact with people.

( p.94 Building Blocks of Personality Type, Haas.)

And that was just a small taste.
If you don't know the difference between Judging and Perceiving, there isn't much point in engaging in conversation until you grasp the basics:

Perceiving—how we focus our attention and gather information


extraverted Sensing (Se)
introverted Sensing (Si)
extraverted intuition(Ne)
introverted Intuiting (Ni)

Judging—how we organize our experiences and make decisions


extraverted Thinking (Te)
introverted Thinking (Ti)
extraverted Feeling (Fe)
introverted Feeling (Fi)

Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes
 
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