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The Opposite of Truth

Thalassa

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In case you missed it or thought you were seeing things, Morgan Le Fay ACTUALLY SAID:

Yeah, about that whole Fe being the basis for lying, wtf. I think lying is probably a survival skill, and I don't mean that socially. I think Te can give plenty motivation for lying as a means to an end: I want money, I want this person to sleep with me, I want this person to leave me alone, I want to take over the world...and if lying is more strategically efficient, then Te could be the basis.

In fact, I'm sure if we really reflected upon it, we could come up with a bunch of "function lies" that don't involve Fe or Te.
 

Wonkavision

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In a way Ti being compared to a maze is ironic. Seeing as the function is used half of the time to form logical frame works.

Yeah, but when its too heavily relied upon it becomes a maze.

It makes sense to the person trapped in it, and one can rail against people for not understanding it's logic, but it really is a form of autism, unfortunately.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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I'm thinking now that Te and Fe are the two common, or most read about forms of lying. The motivations ring throughout societies.
 

redacted

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Yeah, but when its too heavily relied upon it becomes a maze.

Calling it a maze implies it's convoluted.

Dividing a category into two subcategories, then dividing those subcategories into two again is not convoluted. It's absurdly easy to follow.

If you can't point out a logical consequence of my view that is wrong, then you aren't really saying anything more than "lalalalalalala i cant hear you!"
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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Yeah, but when its too heavily relied upon it becomes a maze.

It makes sense to the person trapped in it, and one can rail against people for not understanding it's logic, but it really is a form of autism, unfortunately.

True. (Ha!). Now you just have to reason out when you 'rely upon it' too much.
 

redacted

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It makes sense to the person trapped in it, and one can rail against people for not understanding it's logic, but it really is a form of autism, unfortunately.

This is just insulting.

What the hell is your problem?

If you don't even attempt to try to understand something, calling them autistic because you don't get it right away just makes you an asshole.
 

Wonkavision

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It's simpler than yours and accounts for more than yours can, so by occam's razor, mine is better.

When you realize the utter lunacy (and childishness) of statements like this, and how little it actually matters in the real world, you will find it easier to relate to other human beings.

I really feel sorry for you. Sincerely.

Again, good luck.
 

redacted

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When you realize the utter lunacy (and childishness) of statements like this, and how little it actually matters in the real world, you will find it easier to relate to other human beings.

I really feel sorry for you. Sincerely.

Again, good luck.

Living life without occam's razor must be hilariously inefficient. I'd love to watch that.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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I do have to agree with Evan. I would like to understand why his posts are utter lunacy. It's simply trying to grasp a system.
 

Thalassa

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When you realize the utter lunacy (and childishness) of statements like this, and how little it actually matters in the real world, you will find it easier to relate to other human beings.

I really feel sorry for you. Sincerely.

Again, good luck.

Saying really brilliant things as simply and in as few words as possible is pretty cool.
 

PeaceBaby

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It goes like this:
If it's conscious, it's T or F.
If it's unconscious, it's S or N.
If it's conscious and value-oriented, it's F.
If it's conscious and not value-oriented, it's T.
If it's unconscious and concrete, it's S (for example, the computation in the occipital lobe to convert 2-dimensional information into 3-dimensional representations).
If it's unconscious and not concrete, it's N (for example, integrating the 3-dimensional representations into a metaphorical framework).

I like this. How would you add the perspectives of introversion / extraversion to that?
 

Synapse

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If you consider this to be the summation, then you are with those that believe opposites can at least exist within each other, yes?

In some ways, was going through an odd expression phase yesterday, wouldn't trust it much.
 

redacted

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I like this. How would you add the perspectives of introversion / extraversion to that?

Thank you for actually trying to follow me.

Introversion and extroversion isn't as clear a divide, so I don't think of it as being useful to the same degree. But it does definitely make a distinction that is descriptively useful sometimes (like when typing a person, not usually when attributing a behavior to a function, though).

I'll use Feeling as an example. Feeling needs some input (what the value judgment is about), does some kind of computation (which for purposes of discussion is not worth fleshing out), and spits out either a positive or negative value judgment. Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the external standard (in other words, current external circumstances). Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the internal environment (in other words, current thought process/psychological state).

Another way to explain it is Fe is the value-stuff assuming the external environment takes precedence and Fi is the value-stuff assuming the current internal state takes precedence. Someone using Fe won't feel comfortable making a value judgment without making sure they have all relevant data about the current external situation. Fi users won't care about the external situation, as their understanding of value-judgments is based on their own ideals.

This is analogous for Thinking. Ti users Think about what they're already thinking about. Te users Think about what's going on in front of them. That's why Ti goes more in depth, but Te is more feasible.

For perceiving I need to use a bit different of an explanation.

I'll use Intuition here as an example. Ne users have the attitude that they don't want to miss an environmental opportunity to make a new connection. Ni users have the attitude that the environment is a distraction in making deep connections about what they're currently thinking about.

Sensing works similarly. Se wants to take in as much different environmental information as possible (their goal is breadth). Si wants to take in as much information about the current thing they're thinking about as possible, so they dismiss what's currently going on in favor of seeing all the details of one thing (their goal is depth).

Breadth and depth is a good analogy for introversion and extroversion.
 

William K

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Thank you for actually trying to follow me.

Introversion and extroversion isn't as clear a divide, so I don't think of it as being useful to the same degree. But it does definitely make a distinction that is descriptively useful sometimes (like when typing a person, not usually when attributing a behavior to a function, though).

I'll use Feeling as an example. Feeling needs some input (what the value judgment is about), does some kind of computation (which for purposes of discussion is not worth fleshing out), and spits out either a positive or negative value judgment. Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the external standard (in other words, current external circumstances). Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the internal environment (in other words, current thought process/psychological state).

Another way to explain it is Fe is the value-stuff assuming the external environment takes precedence and Fi is the value-stuff assuming the current internal state takes precedence. Someone using Fe won't feel comfortable making a value judgment without making sure they have all relevant data about the current external situation. Fi users won't care about the external situation, as their understanding of value-judgments is based on their own ideals.

This is analogous for Thinking. Ti users Think about what they're already thinking about. Te users Think about what's going on in front of them. That's why Ti goes more in depth, but Te is more feasible.

For perceiving I need to use a bit different of an explanation.

I'll use Intuition here as an example. Ne users have the attitude that they don't want to miss an environmental opportunity to make a new connection. Ni users have the attitude that the environment is a distraction in making deep connections about what they're currently thinking about.

Sensing works similarly. Se wants to take in as much different environmental information as possible (their goal is breadth). Si wants to take in as much information about the current thing they're thinking about as possible, so they dismiss what's currently going on in favor of seeing all the details of one thing (their goal is depth).

Breadth and depth is a good analogy for introversion and extroversion.

Sounds good...
If you consider functions to be processing blocks then I guess looking at where the input parameters are coming from is one possible way of determining if it's acting in an introverted or extraverted manner.
 

redacted

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Sounds good...
If you consider functions to be processing blocks then I guess looking at where the input parameters are coming from is one possible way of determining if it's acting in an introverted or extraverted manner.

That's the only way I can think of to define introversion/extroversion...

It's not like the cognitive mechanisms for the four functions are actually any different when a function is introverted or extroverted. I/E is just a way of talking about the directional attitude of the function.

Whether a function is introverted or extroverted really is just a matter of what kind of stuff it looks at (aka the inputs).
 

Salomé

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I missed some interesting earlier posts.
well i think it's interesting too...it's like kids blurting out exactly what's on their mind or having a tantrum when they're upset. they have not yet learned to adjust their behavior to make others feel better...it's total honesty and i love it....sometimes i wanna have a tantrum too and it's just not allowed at my age...kinda not fair.
Kids don't only tell the truth when they're upset. (Actually, it's adults who often have to be upset to really let rip with what they truly think).
The INTP is often described as childlike (which is not the same as childish) and pure/innocent and it is perhaps as you say, this feature of children that they most emulate. No one is born with functioning Fe - cultural ideas about socially appropriate behaviour have to be internalised over time. Ti seems to be the function that most resists such influence. (Fi less so, because it still has more of a personal / interpersonal focus).

A good post.
Eysenck found a high correlation between the L (Lie) scale and Fe-kind characteristics.
It supports the view Fe is demonstration of Feeling.

Demonstration

show
display
exhibition
proof
Can you provide a link please? I found a study about the link between neuroticism and lying - is that the work you are referring to?
 

Salomé

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some ideas are too stupid to consider
And some people are just too stupid to consider them. :shrug:
Do you actually have anything to say? Because you've made half a dozen posts which consist of nothing more than laughing at and ridiculing /insulting other people and their ideas whilst contributing nothing of your own. This is no more than a display of profound ignorance.

I mean, dude...
Similarly, you are personally motivated to do things because you're a person, not because you use Feeling.
LOL. Have you ever even read a book about CF theory?
Why don't you get back to us when you have.

This is just insulting.

What the hell is your problem?

If you don't even attempt to try to understand something, calling them autistic because you don't get it right away just makes you an asshole.
Yep, and yet I'm the one who gets the infraction for calling him on his stupid tantrums...
(smells like Fe-bias to me...;))

I just have a real hard time with people preemptively boycotting debate of outlandish ideas, and I find it more and more recurring in this forum so I had to say my piece.
It was ever thus. People R dumb.
 

Totenkindly

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Imagine your conscious mind (jung equates this with judging). Now imagine you have to divide it into two parts, labeling some stuff "value-based" and other stuff "not value based". The "value based" stuff is F. It is all of F. There is no F anywhere not in this part you've labeled. That is F's definition. Same logic for T (with the "not value based" part).

So it's not much of a stretch to say conscious motivation is F. Motivation deals with personal importance, therefore it's value based. (Motivation in a framework where "personal importance" has no meaning must also have no meaning.)

It's unfortunately that T is also conscious, and it's also chosen because it's a value of the user. We value detachment in our evaluation process.

So while values -> motivation, everyone has values, and one of T's values is using T and approaching things in a detached fashion.

I don't think it's as clear-cut as you are making it either, because of this basic, simple truth.


As for the unconscious (jung equates this to perceiving), the concrete stuff is S, and the abstract stuff is N. So if you're motivated by something subconsciously, It's either S or N at work. I guess I might have made too bold of a claim because concrete stuff can be motivating, too. But I guess I was thinking of motivation as a more abstract psychological term, so I said it was N (because if anything is unconscious and abstract, it is N).

Again, you're over-simplifying. iNtuition is about focusing on the ramifications and connections between data rather than the data directly. It's not equivalent to the subconscious/unconscious.

And who says the unconscious is always abstracted? Do you think Sensors still are driven by concepts, or are there very specific details that have been ingrained into the subconscious that they are responding to? It's not a concept necessarily, it can be a literal sense impression that people respond autonomatically too.

Sometimes the conceptualization occurs when we TALK about it -- i.e., someone had a specific bad experience, now they operate a certain way in real life that is not appropriate as a direct result, and N's conceptualize the specific event into an idea that is then discussed as if the person specifically has that concept embeded... but in reality, it's still really just the specific event that was embedded.

This is very simple stuff.

Apparently not... based on just how there is still disagreement over whether your suggestions make sense here.
 

Salomé

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I think Te can give plenty motivation for lying as a means to an end: I want money, I want this person to sleep with me, I want this person to leave me alone, I want to take over the world...and if lying is more strategically efficient, then Te could be the basis.
Nope. None of those are Te. (I want implies a value judgment). If I do X, Y will be the result - is logic at work, but logic cannot tell us what we want and therefore cannot provide motivation.

In fact, I'm sure if we really reflected upon it, we could come up with a bunch of "function lies" that don't involve Fe or Te.
There is no such thing as a function lie. That's a meaningless expression. I've already defined terms, either stick to them, or show why they don't apply, all this other stuff is bullshit and clouds the discussion.

I'll use Feeling as an example. Feeling needs some input (what the value judgment is about), does some kind of computation (which for purposes of discussion is not worth fleshing out), and spits out either a positive or negative value judgment. Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the external standard (in other words, current external circumstances). Fi is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the internal environment (in other words, current thought process/psychological state).
FYP.

Thinking about this, no...it's not quite right.

Fe is the internalized external standard. It's the function we use to determine what that standard is and how to work with/around that.
Fi is the externalized internal standard. It's the function we use to determine what is right (irrespective of what others think) and how to work with that.
?
 
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