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  1. #71
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Nitpicking here, but that's just the T version of truth. Breaking it down further, Ti 'truth' is what is logically consistent, whereas Te 'truth' is what is empirically proven.
    Agreed.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    "The truth? You can't handle the truth!"

  3. #73
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    You know, I didn't find it that funny. Cringe-worthy as you say, and definitely some entertaining moments, but I found it interesting that my hubs (estj) and daughter (intj) found it way funnier than I did. They were LOL'ing especially in the first half.

    I'm not really sure why I didn't find it as humorous. Haven't analyzed it deep enough to know why either. I think I'd have to watch it again to articulate.
    Analysis is paralysis (as far as humour goes). But I'll give it a go. Laughing represents a release of tension. We see something that looks threatening, and then we are relieved that it's actually not serious. We're momentarily shocked, then relieved. Tension/release.
    Unpalatable truths can be perceived as threatening, but the context (movie) means we don't have to take it seriously, therefore, we laugh.
    Let's take something from the opening scene, as an example:

    Jennifer: Hi, you’re early! I was just masturbating.
    Mark: That makes me think of your vagina.

    Which I found devastatingly funny. But neither of the characters were amused, in fact a lot of the humour relied on Gervais' character being put-out/put-down in some way. I guess if you empathise with the character then you might find it offensive. If you see it for the absurd set-up (that it is) you don't.

    Personally, I love the humour of the absurd. (Because it's true!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    If you take value judgments out of it, what exactly is the substance of your argument?

    It's unfair that society favors one style of thinking over another?

    If that's not your argument, I really have no idea what is.
    OK. Then stop trying. It's not that important to me that you understand.
    P.S. typing people over the internet based on mutual misunderstanding is retarded.
    You typed yourself INFJ when I was first here. I simply expressed agreement with that typing over INTP which now appears to have become ENTP. You don't seem sure yourself. Sometimes people appreciate a little outside input.
    And I think spotting an INTP over the internet is not that much of a challenge for another INTP. Part of that is based on mutual understanding and shared ways of communicating ideas. Sorry, but it just is.
    I wouldn't categorically say you're not NTP, but you've never seemed like one to me. No biggie.
    it takes a T function to lie. Because you have to know the truth to consciously say something different.
    That's the first interesting thing you've said in this thread. Well done.

    We are starting to refine a hypothesis. I think the motivation for lying comes from Fe. The execution is something else, perhaps?

    Can the motivation come from a function other than Fe?


    The arguments about what is truth for each function I regard as a bit of a dead end.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Your theory doesn't make a bit of sense, anyway, when we regard the fact that all people with Ti have Fe and all people with Te have Fi.
    This is FACT? Interesting. I thought it was one theory among many.

    Please go ahead and prove to me that I have Fe and not Fi. This should be interesting - giving your sessions with Sim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    .We are starting to refine a hypothesis. I think the motivation for lying comes from Fe. The execution is something else, perhaps?

    Can the motivation come from a function other than Fe?
    This, I would say, is one of the most common motivations for lying. It resembles, I can only think of examples from movies but, that of lying to an entire family due to 'pride', or not wanting others to worry about them. The other is an Fi kind of lie. This is lying to yourself. You would do so when you personally think that a value hasn't been violated (even though dramatic irony might say it was). Ti I think is a theatrical way of carrying out a lie.

    It's early so I may refine this later.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Truth is like water!

    A trunk is like truth!

    A water trunk is like a trunk of truth. bwhahah wheeze, you didn't see that one coming did you. Oh ominous luminescence of truth.

    Let me refresh the waters of truth.

    If we look think of Te as trunk and Fe as Water. Take a chunk of a trunk and dunk that chunk in water. What's the sound of chunk slapping. Truth is like a sound vibration. A sound vibration that carries, when attuned to the frequency that matters is when body language interprets the intention behind the matters of opinion that mattered.

    In other words matter folds according to mattress length.

    Silly spirals tell tails of magnet resistance. When magnet resistance polarizes opinionated facts, facts truncate into lubricated fiction.

    Exaggeration permutation beheld the eyes of family grace. their words tell lies within lies within lies of their truth like electric currents towards critical facts that mattered in accordance with their belief system. But their belief system fought like a behemoth for their truth, so inevitable that their inner behemoth forgot about their soul purpose. And then was the day their facts changed to fiction after they know not their ego, denied their Ti dation...damnation into eternal eminence.

    No...Justice create fallacies...Law harbors mendacities...Logic harbors audacities...Rational harbours fantasies...Emotions harbous realities...and THAT...just...didn't make one lick of sense did it. sheepish grin!

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    No...Justice create fallacies...Law harbors mendacities...Logic harbors audacities...Rational harbours fantasies...Emotions harbous realities...and THAT...just...didn't make one lick of sense did it. sheepish grin!
    If you consider this to be the summation, then you are with those that believe opposites can at least exist within each other, yes?

  7. #77
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Ti is the "truth function"? Fe is the "lying function"?

    And now Fi is a "lying function" too???

    I can't believe anyone is taking this seriously!


    Ridiculous.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  8. #78
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Time for some clarification/definitions. (sometimes I wrongly believe that such things are self-evident)

    Lying = telling someone something you know to be untrue, with the intent to deceive.

    If I tell you I’m wearing black panties while I type this, but they’re actually white, that’s a lie.
    If I forget what colour they are but believe that they’re black (even though they might actually be white) then it’s not a lie.
    Simples. (Stop thinking about my panties now)


    Lying isn’t good, bad or indifferent – it’s simply untrue. I don’t know how hard that is for some people to get their heads around, but consider the actions of the Dutch ppl who kept Ann Frank and her family alive by lying to the SS. Most people would consider that to be the only moral choice. There is nothing intrinsically bad about lying.

    It follows that there is also nothing intrinsically good about telling the truth. The fact that most of us don’t want to be deceived, makes us call lying “immoral”.


    Allow me to now use this very thread as illustration of the oppositional nature of Ti/Fe.

    Not being completely retarded, I had some inkling that the question might spark some controversy amongst certain F-types who might choose to interpret it as an attack. I'm using theory of mind to guess what reaction my actions are likely to produce. I hoped that I might also get an interesting debate going (but I didn't actually think it all that likely).

    If I were to listen to Fe, I wouldn’t create the thread, and I would thus avoid any potential unpleasantness.

    However, that would be in complete opposition to my instinct and my values, namely:

    1. It’s a legitimate and interesting question to explore on a forum ostensibly about MBTI
    2. I want to understand how other people perceive/experience these functions and I can only do that by asking them questions
    3. It’s irrational for someone to over-identify with a concept such as function theory to the extent that they’d feel personally affronted by such a question
    4. It’s wrong to give in to irrational, whiny people, when they can choose to stay out of the thread or to engage reasonably
    5. It’s actually insulting to Fe users to assume that they can’t decide for themselves to do either of the above two things

    These are Ti (and to a certain extent, Fi) judgments, I would say

    None of that is conscious, but that’s what’s going on when I make the decision. Note how superior my Ti/Fi reasoning process is to the “gut feel/uncertainty” of my Fe-like one (not ALL Fe ones, just MINE, K?).
    Of course it is, and so of course I should listen to it. I don’t really have a choice. To choose otherwise would mean being untrue to myself.

    That's how Fe suppresses Ti internally - if one allows it to. The reaction of some of the posters is how Fe suppresses Ti externally (Fe is our internal representation of external judgments).
    (Someone, fidelia? used the word "suppress", protean used the word "tempers" - the effect is the same - a dampening down)

    It would be interesting (to me) to see the thought process of a Fe-dom user when making a similar decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #79
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Would it follow that Fi truth consists of logically consistent values and Fe truth of empirically observed and proven ones?
    Not really. The difference between F and T is defined as the difference between logic and ethics, so it's more like: Fi truth consists of personal values (as opposed to personal logic), and Fe truth consists of societally held values (as opposed to externally held logic, or empiricism). Empirical truth falls strictly within the realm of logical analysis.
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  10. #80
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    The one thing I just realized about Ti logic is that it is the details that makes it subjective. So if the details change, while the logic may remain true you just turned it into Te as the detail changes what I can handle on a personal level, but Ti will always remain true to its logic else it becomes hypocritical.

    The same thing can be flipped around for Fi and Fe.
    Im out, its been fun

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