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  1. #51
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    MLF, it seems to me that you're setting up a false dichotomy and either/or situation (Ti=Truth/Fe=Lying).

    I could easily do the same thing like this:

    Fe=Benevolence, Charity
    Ti= Malevolence, Rancor

    Fe=Civil
    Ti=Boorish

    Fe=Prosocial
    Ti=Antisocial

    I could go on and on.
    You could, and some of those are accurate (I don't think anyone would argue with the last one, for example), but some are highly subjective value judgments (what you see as benevolent, I might see as busy-bodying, for example). There is no such problem with truth vs untruth. We all know when we are lying. So the burden arises to prove in what way functions give rise to attributes or traits.

    It seems to me that Ti has no interest in lying (and by lying I mean being in any way false to itself). Its sole preoccupation is Truth, in a very clinical sense. It does not shy away from the unpalatable or even the unethical. Such considerations are disregarded. (Whether a Ti-user actually achieves true clarity and insight is a matter of skill and not preference, of course.) That is not to say that Ti is more moral than Fe, obviously (I would hope that's obvious, anyway).

    Aside from self-deception, to which we are all vulnerable, conscious lying is an entirely social process. It is an aspect of social intelligence. A social tool. It requires "theory of mind".

    Fe actively asks us to lie to each other ("no, your ass doesn't look big in that", "I'm fine, thanks", "I'd love to visit your mother-in-law") in order to maintain harmonious relations (the positive aspect), or in order to manipulate someone into doing something - which may be for their own benefit, or for our own (the negative aspect). The social rituals and mythologies that Fe upholds are often riddled with deceit: Xmas and Santa Claus, tooth fairies, bogey man, religion etc, etc. Could society even function without lies? I don't know, it's an interesting question to consider. (Another one is why do we have such an aversion to lying when we rely on it to make the world go around - but that one is kinda self-evident.)

    As a Fe-dom I don't feel that my Ti opposes my Fe, it more often seems to temper and balance my Fe, especially when I get into the analytics of interpersonal relationships. It shades and nuances the broad strokes Fe tends to make. I agree both can't be dominate; one mode will have to be subordinate to another, but they are not incompatible.
    That's an interesting interpretation. Perhaps they are not. Perhaps because Ti is a pretty innocuous function in itself, Fe-users are not suspicious of it. It deals with pretty simple stuff - yes/no, black/white, logical/illogical. Not too much room for interpretation there. It's also something we are taught to acquire through elementary and further education, whereas there is an implicit assumption (Fe-bias again) that everyone will acquire Fe-proficiency without such practiced effort. Perhaps this is one reason why Fe-doms are frequently more well-rounded than Ti-doms?


    (What function was I using? )
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  2. #52
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Possibly. Definitely an interesting exploration of T v F values, anyway. Did you not find it amusing?
    I can enjoy that cringe-inducing socially inappropriate humour that Gervais does so well. But I can only take so much of it.
    You know, I didn't find it that funny. Cringe-worthy as you say, and definitely some entertaining moments, but I found it interesting that my hubs (estj) and daughter (intj) found it way funnier than I did. They were LOL'ing especially in the first half.

    I'm not really sure why I didn't find it as humorous. Haven't analyzed it deep enough to know why either. I think I'd have to watch it again to articulate.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  3. #53
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Fe 'truth'- agreement with a standard or original (Mainly 'standard').

    Ti 'truth'- conformity with fact or reality; verity.

    Dictionary.com. There are several other definitions, but I don't see them explaining the point of this thread very well. Now for the falsities.

    Ti 'false'- not true or correct; erroneous.

    Fe 'false'- not faithful or loyal; treacherous.

    Same as above description. Note that these are what appear to be fake and what each would perceive to be fake as well. If we can agree on terms we can move this discussion towards something.

  4. #54
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ what would Te and Fi truth then be? (Not to confuse the issue, just curious.)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #55
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Ti 'truth'- conformity with fact or reality; verity.
    Nitpicking here, but that's just the T version of truth. Breaking it down further, Ti 'truth' is what is logically consistent, whereas Te 'truth' is what is empirically proven.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Nitpicking here, but that's just the T version of truth. Breaking it down further, Ti 'truth' is what is logically consistent, whereas Te 'truth' is what is empirically proven.
    Te - a way of life for the "non-thinking" "thinker"
    Im out, its been fun

  7. #57
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post

    Ti 'truth'- conformity with fact or reality; verity.
    :rolli: LOL

    No. I disagree.

    Highly subjective interpretation ya got there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post

    Ti 'truth' is what is logically consistent, whereas Te 'truth' is what is empirically proven.
    Yes. I agree.
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  8. #58
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Would it follow that Fi truth consists of logically consistent values and Fe truth of empirically observed and proven ones?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #59
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    blah blah blah, i think i'm smarter than you.
    If you take value judgments out of it, what exactly is the substance of your argument?

    It's unfair that society favors one style of thinking over another?

    If that's not your argument, I really have no idea what is.

    P.S. typing people over the internet based on mutual misunderstanding is retarded.



    Edit: you were the one that called Fe the lying function, by the way.
    Here is the definition:
    conscious value judgments given the premises inherent in the current environment

    so where exactly are you getting anything about people? about blind following of moral standards? about lying?

    it takes a T function to lie. Because you have to know the truth to consciously say something different.

    If you have problems with specific Fe users, fine. But it's not the function's "fault". You're making all sorts of assumptions about what it means to use that function that have absolutely nothing to do with the definition. Your argument has tons of hidden premises that you somehow expect everyone to follow.

    I'm sure you'll respond to this in some condescending way, but this is the last time I'm taking the bait.

  10. #60
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Would it follow that Fi truth consists of logically consistent values and Fe truth of empirically observed and proven ones?
    Not sure about that...

    I see it this way,
    T truth = facts
    F truth = opinion

    So,
    Fi = personal opinion
    Fe = public opinion
    Last edited by William K; 09-13-2010 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Replaced group/majority opinion with public opinion
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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