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  1. #31
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    The opposite of truth is more truth.

    The only truth that exists is that of what the perceived perceives as truth.

    In that vein, everything is also false.

    What function am I using?
    Sounds like Ti bullshit uh...reasoning to me.
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  2. #32
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    This is tangential, but I don't care.

    Interpersonally? Given your definition; there are some strong cases to be made. Although, these particular notions of "truth" and "lying" could use terms that don't have the connotation that those have. I assume that this is the focus of the thread.


    But objectively and/or on a larger scale? I'd say no. I'm sure that both functions can be used to uncover part of whatever "truth" is out there (conflating judging and perceiving here, probably, but.. you get the point). This applies to everyone, regardless of cognitive function order; we've all got our biases that affect our perceptions and actions.

    People lie to themselves when they believe that they've got the whole truth and act with that assumption in mind. It's just a more indirect and "passive" form of lying--outright denial.

    But then again, is ignorance of that limitation "lying"? To the extent that one doesn't want to discover the whole truth, I'd say that leads back into denial.

  3. #33
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Ti is the “Truth” function, right? So is Fe the lying function?

    Discuss.
    Ti would never sacrifice losing 'the truth' for others benefits. Whereas if Fe felt that it was in everyones interest to avoid the truth, if only for a while, they would. This would cause them to inadvertantly lie.

  4. #34
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light.
    Well yours certainly does. You seem to be incapable of having a conversation that doesn't descend into personal insults and baiting. It's pathetic. Isn't it about time you grew up?

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    This is tangential, but I don't care.

    Interpersonally? Given your definition; there are some strong cases to be made. Although, these particular notions of "truth" and "lying" could use terms that don't have the connotation that those have. I assume that this is the focus of the thread.
    The thread doesn't really have a focus. Nor is it very interesting. I did write the OP when I was half-cut so it's not surprising.

    I have a number of other ideas about the evolution of lying and social intelligence, but the lack of decent feedback and the tiresome defensiveness makes it not worth the effort of typing...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #35
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Does 'truth' exist? Ok, I'm utterly confused by the semantic foundations here...

    The opposite of truth is falsehood. But is there truth in anything? Is there falsehood?There is nothing that is both.

    I think Ti is more of a precision function, not a lie-detector. It can sacrifice Fe.

    But is Ti the opposite of Fe? I don't think so...

    Ti-Fe relationship is repressive but not entirely polar opposites.

  6. #36
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    ^If you don't understand how being told to mistrust one's dominant function is harmful (not to say, ridiculous), then it will be impossible for you to grasp what I'm trying to say.So then we have a theoretical disagreement. But your understanding isn't supported by the facts. The fact is that Ti-doms are almost always Fe-deficient. Maybe Ti and Fe "functions" will turn out to be meaningless constructs, whatever, it's still an effective shorthand for types of behaviours and value systems that are both real and ideologically incompatible. This isn't even up for debate. Empirically it is obvious: If two people take a personality test (essentially choosing between two opposing options which indicate a preference for Fe-type decision-making or Ti-type decision-making) and one scores as a Ti-dom, the other as a Fe-dom, those people have indicated very different value systems and approaches.
    Not necessarily. All tests force you to do a dimensionality reduction on your absurdly-high-dimensional psychological space. Forced answer (multiple choice) tests are by definition forcing you to throw away information about your psychology.

    Those two people could easily have completely compatible social approaches, even if they might have a different internal narrative to explain them.

    Saying Fe-style processing is extra hard for Ti users isn't actually something I disagree with as a trend, maybe even a very strong correlation.

    But to talk about Fe users as if they by definition are intolerant of Ti-style thinking is almost insultingly dismissive. Some are, and they're assholes. Some Ti users refuse to accept emotional reality, and they're assholes too.

    There's nothing so unequal going on.

    Ask the Ti-dom to act in Fe-consistent way and he will experience difficulty and internal tension. Ask the Fe-dom to act in a Ti-consistent way and you have the same problem.
    What I'm saying is the the first scenario is a daily reality for Ti-doms and the second rarely happens at all. So who is going to experience greater social comfort and greater social fluency? And who is going to suffer with low self-esteem and other psychological dis-ease?
    Really? So you think Fe users somehow have less conflict than Ti users? (they seem to bump up against disagreement even MORE often than Ti users imo) You think everyone who uses Fe agrees on some specific set of morals? Feeling is SUBJECTIVE. Who are you to say that making judgments in a subjective framework is intolerant?

    You are using as much Fe as Ti right now. Your complaint about this "intolerance" is, by definition, Feeling. It is a value judgment (the way things SHOULD be for people) and not a truth judgment (plain old descriptions of reality).

    And it's not the case that Fe-doms are going to be more socially adept irrespective of environment, which seems like an obvious counterargument. Put a Fe-dom in with a bunch of INTPs and see how well they navigate that social terrain. Most of them will suck at it (and probably piss everyone off). Some of the most offensive and inconsiderate people I know have been Fe-dom.
    Fe <> social skills. It simply means proficiency in a Fe-dom environment. Subtle, but important distinction.
    This is where I call BS. You give them no room to have any skill a Ti user doesn't have. You clearly assume Ti users are better at logical reasoning than Fe users, but you give the Fe users no counter-skill?

    T-types consciously think about logic more than value, that is all. Just like F-types consciously think about value more than logic. But a T-user will implicitly assume his stance is "good", and an F-user his stance "true".

    Sounds to me you just think Ti users are better (which, by the way is a value judgment). The rest is just whining.


    "Hurt" and "surprise" are emotions. Don't conflate Feeling with emotion - schoolboy error.
    You are right, I didn't explain my point using consistent terms. What I meant was even aspies consciously think about the "wrongness" of the way people treat them.

    Nowhere have I suggested that Ts are not susceptible to the same emotions Fs are. In fact, my whole argument has been about the emotional and psychological consequences of being Ti-dom in a Fe-dom world.
    That's exactly what it means. They prefer that function, it is a natural strength, ergo, they use it more often (unless circumstances force them to act against their own natural proclivities).

    Agreed. Not part of my argument though.

    Wrong. Analysis does not require feeling judgement. Truly objective analysis both recognises and puts aside one's subjective assumptions (which can only be done to the extent that they are conscious and understood). This is irrelevant to my point though.
    No, you!!!!!!!!

    But seriously, analysis requires a framework (a set of consistent premises). How do you think you get that framework? You decide what points are important to make. Keyword important. The word is meaningless objectively -- it's a subjective term. You have some conversational goal, or maybe some goal that you want to figure out something, or whatever. THEN you analyze. Sure, if you use thinking, your conclusions will be entailed by your premises. But why those premises? That's where you are using F (and for some reason not acknowledging it).


    I really just think your understanding of the functions is flawed, so when you're throwing these terms around you actually mean something other than the actual definitions. I suspect we would probably agree if you made this exact same argument in longhand (full explanations instead of the verbal shortcuts of the functions).

    The problem I see here is the dimensionality reduction thing. When you use an MBTI framework, you're throwing away information. That's useful to do when shorthand is necessary. But here, you're just losing data for no good reason.

    I'm disagreeing with you because the logical consequences of the terms you use are different than what you think they are. Not because of some idealogical difference. At least that's what I think. Seems like you and I have this problem fairly often.

    I did that already. It has nothing to do with having a hard time accepting reality. Reality is subjective. Ti-doms appreciate this better than most. Fe-doms don't have to. They say "there is one reality, mine, if you don't think/behave like I do, and value the things that I value, there is something wrong with you".
    No. This is not a true representation of all xxFJ types. This is just a strawman.

    You think Fe users don't introspect? Don't question themselves? Don't use Thinking? That's so closed-minded. Especially since you don't blame the Ti users for their deficiency.

    Or are you saying that a Ti-deficiency is just "worse" than an Fe deficiency? That would be ironic...

    Recognising that society is (almost inevitably) constructed around a Fe-based reality, which is pretty much directly opposed to how one operates as a Ti-dom, doesn't make one irrational. It's just a fact.
    Fe-based reality? Ha.

    Whenever ANYONE makes a value judgment about external reality, they are using Fe. So of course the framework of "value judgments in external reality" is Fe-oriented. That doesn't even mean anything. It's definitional.

    What it sounds like you actually mean is that society as a whole doesn't have much patience for those that don't have an intuition for social norms and gesture, etc. People with that intuition are not necessarily Fe-dominants, though. That's really an introversion/extroversion thing. Seriously, have you ever watched how easy it is for an ESTP to navigate social reality? You are mischaracterizing the problem.

    But, accounting for that, I think I agree with the thing you are trying to communicate.

    I think most Ts do learn to do this. I also think it pisses them off and creates inner tension since it is not natural for them. My argument is this means that one half of the population has to constantly capitulate to the feelings of the other. What's fair about that? Just saying "it's reality" means less than nothing. That it is reality is implicit in my criticism. Why would I critique fantasy worlds?
    Half the population? Ha. That's the problem with your argument.

    The actual truth is that most people don't have as much problem navigating the social environment as INTPs. It's not like these so-called "socially deficient" people make up HALF of the population... LOL. If they actually did, they'd also have half the say of what the population thinks! And you sure wouldn't be complaining this way if that were the case.

    Yes, there is a group of people that have less natural intuition for social interaction than others. Just call them the bottom 10 percentile or something. I agree, it sucks for those people. And I agree, I wish it didn't have to be so hard for them. And I agree, the people that give them an extra hard time as if they didn't already have it bad enough are huge assholes.

    But this is not the fault of Fe. That's just silly.

    Not at all. You are completely missing the point.
    I'm not suggesting changing anything. I'm offering a way of understanding some types of psychopathology. I'm suggesting that abnormal (in the sense of departing from the norm) is not the same as dysfunctional. Isn't this the whole premise of MBTI, after all? I'm suggesting that real dysfunction is brought about by insisting that they are the same. That this prejudice is implicit and insidious and toxic. That it is at least as legitimate to value truth over lies as to value lies over truth. (And let's not get into the subjective nature of "truth". All of us know when we are lying/faking.).
    Of course abnormal is not necessarily dysfunctional.

    (It's also interesting how you label it abnormal here and say 50% elsewhere.)

    Unfortunately, though, the people with less social intuition just have it harder socially. I mean, duuuhhhh. And I do feel bad for them. A lot of people give them a harder time than they deserve, because they assume its something they have conscious control over.

    Most of the Fe-doms I know are actually quite fascinated by the Ti-perspective. If they're mature enough, they've learned that part of navigating a social environment is factoring in the fact that people have different conversational approaches!

    If Ti users can learn to cater their communication to those around them, Fe users can learn to accept viewpoints besides their own. Stop trying to make it so unequal.

    For Ti, it is, you don't understand Ti if you don't understand this. No "rule" is given legitimacy simply because it exists. It must make sense, or else it is either dismissed (the preferred option) or endured (the psychologically harmful one,imo).
    Blah blah blah....such closed-mindedness. In my opinion, a "good" Ti user can see why it makes sense to factor in social norms to decision-making. What's up with the implicit claim that it doesn't make sense to care about social values? It completely makes sense. There's nothing hard to grasp about it. If you have a hard time grasping it, I'd say there's something ILLOGICAL about you, not logical.

    Freakin' ridiculous!

  7. #37
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Well yours certainly does. You seem to be incapable of having a conversation that doesn't descend into personal insults and baiting. It's pathetic. Isn't it about time you grew up?
    The problem here is you either spit out nothing but negativity, or accuse people of insulting you. Here is what I posted, that you called an "insult":

    That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light.
    Those words of mine are basically the life lesson that Jung teaches and it's accomplished via the transcendent function which bridges the concious and the unconscious. Funny, you took it as an "insult" and yet another member got the lesson right away in a PM conversation with me. The following quotes illustrate the point about transcending opposites or "one-sided" personalities.

    "But if you go through the process of individuation, learning to deal with the opposites, then your type may change, or your preferences may lessen or even disappear."

    "If, however, as a result of the stability of the ego, neither side succeeds [then the transcendent function becomes] superior to both... In this way it becomes a new content that governs the whole attitude, putting an end to the division and forcing the energy of opposites into a common channel."

    What you fail to realize is that what you are encouraging is basically a state of imbalance. Fe, can work in a compensatory manner with Ti. If you don't want to realize that, it's your own loss.

    Jung's entire career was not devoted to type, it was devoted to the unconscious, and the union of "opposites." Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll say it again. That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light. If Jung were alive, he'd agree with it. Do yourself a favor and get Jeffrey C. Miller's book: The Transcendent Function. On second thought, you won't read it. Personal growth doesn't seem to appeal to you, but it may appeal to other forum members.

    Don't waste my time accusing me of insulting you, again. It's nothing but a cheap tactic used on certain members when they disagree with your viewpoint. Get over it.

  8. #38
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    Thank you for clarifying that, Jaguar.

  9. #39
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Here is what I posted, that you called an "insult":
    Interesting that you edited your quote to exclude all the provocation and then try to justify yourself with that yawn-inducing obnoxious pomposity, descending into yet more abuse. Is Jaguar a 'fraidy cat? You can't help poking people with a stick, can you? Even after your recent ban. I feel sorry for you. The bizarre thing is, you're deluded enough to believe that you actually have some moral authority to attack people in the malicious and unprovoked way that you do. If you were even an interesting / funny troll, I might want to play with you, but you're predictable and boring. *sigh* 1/10

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Not necessarily. All tests force you to do a dimensionality reduction on your absurdly-high-dimensional psychological space. Forced answer (multiple choice) tests are by definition forcing you to throw away information about your psychology.

    Those two people could easily have completely compatible social approaches, even if they might have a different internal to explain them.
    Are you just trying to discredit MBTI ? Because that's a different thread. I don't want to argue fundamentals with you. I wouldn't be on this site if I didn't think the system had some merit.
    Really? So you think Fe users somehow have less conflict than Ti users? (they seem to bump up against disagreement even MORE often than Ti users imo) You think everyone who uses Fe agrees on some specific set of morals? Feeling is SUBJECTIVE. Who are you to say that making judgments in a subjective framework is intolerant?
    You are using as much Fe as Ti right now. Your complaint about this "intolerance" is, by definition, Feeling. It is a value judgment (the way things SHOULD be for people) and not a truth judgment (plain old descriptions of reality).
    Um. Where did I say anything about intolerance / conflict? You're sooo not getting it. I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or what but engaging you is often hard work with no reward.
    This is where I call BS. You give them no room to have any skill a Ti user doesn't have. You clearly assume Ti users are better at logical reasoning than Fe users, but you give the Fe users no counter-skill?
    I don't think I've mentioned skills anywhere. Try again.

    Sounds to me you just think Ti users are better (which, by the way is a value judgment).
    Wrong again. I'm not making any value judgements, but you're making a lot, to support your assumptions. (You keep changing your type, I still think INFJ fits best, which would explain why you can't seem to grasp an argument that would be transparent to an NTP (whether they agree or not).

    I really just think your understanding of the functions is flawed, so when you're throwing these terms around you actually mean something other than the actual definitions. I suspect we would probably agree if you made this exact same argument in longhand (full explanations instead of the verbal shortcuts of the functions).
    That makes no sense. Either you agree or you disagree. You can't "suspect you'd agree if I made a longer argument". Maybe my understanding is flawed, maybe yours is. Actually the definitions of the functions are moot. Ti/Fe are illustratory only. I'm (internally) abstracting from that (you would too, if you were Ti-dom). It's the opposition that's important. That's the bit you're not grasping/accepting. Which is ok, but the only valid challenge to my argument is that they are not opposed. If you can prove that, then the rest all falls away.

    You think Fe users don't introspect? Don't question themselves? Don't use Thinking? That's so closed-minded. Especially since you don't blame the Ti users for their deficiency.
    No, no, no; therefore irrelevant.
    Or are you saying that a Ti-deficiency is just "worse" than an Fe deficiency? That would be ironic...
    No again. You can't suspend these value judgements that you keep projecting onto me, can you? It's funny/frustrating.

    What it sounds like you actually mean is that society as a whole doesn't have much patience for those that don't have an intuition for social norms and gesture, etc. People with that intuition are not necessarily Fe-dominants, though. That's really an introversion/extroversion thing. Seriously, have you ever watched how easy it is for an ESTP to navigate social reality? You are mischaracterizing the problem.
    That's not really what I'm talking about. And I don't think what you are talking about is strictly I/E, although that prejudice is there, as I already mentioned. I think ENTPs can struggle as much/maybe more than INTPs with that stuff, because of their higher need for social approval.

    Half the population? Ha. That's the problem with your argument.
    I kind of knew you were going to fail to pick up on the fact that YOU switched to talking to talking about T preference (and not specifically Ti-preference). I switched with you (since valuing objectivity is common to Ts) and ~half* represents a stronger case for the point that I was making - which was tangential to my main point, though not irrelevant.

    (*Ts are roughly half the population - depending on what stats you use.)

    And I agree, I wish it didn't have to be so hard for them. And I agree, the people that give them an extra hard time as if they didn't already have it bad enough are huge assholes.
    You're Fe-ing all over the thread. I'm not looking for / offering sympathy. I'm talking about cause/effect. Jeez, this is difficult.

    (It's also interesting how you label it abnormal here and say 50% elsewhere.)
    Again, your failure to read/comprehend, not my inconsistency.

    Unfortunately, though, the people with less social intuition just have it harder socially. I mean, duuuhhhh. And I do feel bad for them. A lot of people give them a harder time than they deserve, because they assume its something they have conscious control over.
    Wow. Not interested, seriously.

    In my opinion, a "good" Ti user can see why it makes sense to factor in social norms to decision-making. What's up with the implicit claim that it doesn't make sense to care about social values? It completely makes sense. There's nothing hard to grasp about it. If you have a hard time grasping it, I'd say there's something ILLOGICAL about you, not logical.
    I don't have a hard time grasping it, I made no such "implicit claim". I've reiterated over and over that is not what I'm talking about. No need to be rude just because you don't understand and can't engage the problem intellectually rather than personally. But please, spare me another long-winded exercise in futility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #40
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    I prefer silence over lieing

    edit: Anyway, Ti is about finding whats internally true. So in this case whats internally true for Fe is the sticking with the goal. This may mean not being true to self or they may be allowed to be true to self. Depends on what the goal is and why. Ti is more about finding what people are true to internally, its about finding subjective "truths".
    Im out, its been fun

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