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The Opposite of Truth

PeaceBaby

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The thought occurred to me whilst watching The Invention of Lying.

I thought the movie hinged more on the Te / Fe dynamic.

What do you think?

My husband is Te dom and when we watched the movie he thought it was hilarious, because he often does say just what's on his mind, sans filters.
 

Salomé

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Ti is more about finding what people are true to internally, its about finding subjective "truths".
Nope. That's Fi.

I thought the movie hinged more on the Te / Fe dynamic.

What do you think?

My husband is Te dom and when we watched the movie he thought it was hilarious, because he often does say just what's on his mind, sans filters.
Possibly. Definitely an interesting exploration of T v F values, anyway. Did you not find it amusing?
I can enjoy that cringe-inducing socially inappropriate humour that Gervais does so well. But I can only take so much of it.

----
ETA
I've now come up with 5 refutations of my own argument.
It's less fun when I have to argue with myself.
 

Aleksei

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Ti is the “Truth” function, right? So is Fe the lying function?

Discuss.
This is actually probably more accurate than it may seem at first glance. Fe users often act in a "fake" manner in order to accommodate others, or manipulate others' feelings to their own ends -- or else are simply not true to their own feelings and values because they don't understand them. My friend's ENTP ex-girlfriend (who has serious anger management issues) has this problem.
 

Jaguar

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:rolleyes: Interesting that you edited your quote to exclude all the provocation and then try to justify yourself with that yawn-inducing obnoxious pomposity, descending into yet more abuse. Is Jaguar a 'fraidy cat? You can't help poking people with a stick, can you? Even after your recent ban. I feel sorry for you. :dont: The bizarre thing is, you're deluded enough to believe that you actually have some moral authority to attack people in the malicious and unprovoked way that you do. If you were even an interesting / funny troll, I might want to play with you, but you're predictable and boring. *sigh* 1/10

Now you resort to lying about my post. It figures.
Here's your own post:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/1324511-post34.html

Anyone can see the part of my post you quoted and called an "insult" is the exact same sentence I used in my following post which is this:

That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light.

Really Blue, at this point it's impossible to take you seriously.
What's next from you - calling the statement, the grass is green, "abuse"?
I've seen you pull this same cheap tactic on Night, many times.
If you can't take people disagreeing with your posts, then it's probably best if you don't start threads.
 

Salomé

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Now you resort to lying about my post. It figures.
Here's your own post:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/1324511-post34.html

Anyone can see the part of my post you quoted and called an "insult" is the exact same sentence I used in my following post which is this:

Really Blue, at this point it's impossible to take you seriously.
What's next from you - calling the statement, the grass is green, "abuse"?
I've seen you pull this same cheap tactic on Night, many times.
If you can't take people disagreeing with your posts, then it's probably best if you don't start threads.
And I've seen you pull this shit innumerable times. But bullies don't intimidate me, Jag. You should know better by now.

I quoted the bit I was referring to for context. Which wasn't the most inflammatory part. I don't tend to quote insults because it lends them a credence they don't deserve. Damn, are you really that dense, or are you just determined to derail the thread?
 

proteanmix

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MLF, it seems to me that you're setting up a false dichotomy and either/or situation (Ti=Truth/Fe=Lying).

I could easily do the same thing like this:

Fe=Benevolence, Charity
Ti= Malevolence, Rancor

Fe=Civil
Ti=Boorish

Fe=Prosocial
Ti=Antisocial

I could go on and on.

As a Fe-dom I don't feel that my Ti opposes my Fe, it more often seems to temper and balance my Fe, especially when I get into the analytics of interpersonal relationships. It shades and nuances the broad strokes Fe tends to make. I agree both can't be dominate; one mode will have to be subordinate to another, but they are not incompatible.

ETA: If there is no integration of attitudes (which is what Jag was getting at with individuation of functions) then of course they will seem irreconcilable to each other.
 

Jaguar

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And I've seen you pull this shit innumerable times. But bullies don't intimidate me, Jag. You should know better by now.

I quoted the bit I was referring to for context. Which wasn't the most inflammatory part. I don't tend to quote insults because it lends them a credence they don't deserve. Damn, are you really that dense, or are you just determined to derail the thread?

Derail a thread with my on-topic posts? Oh, that's "original."
You're derailing your own thead by refusing to acknowledge Fe working in a compensatory manner with Ti.
And the reason you refuse to acknowledge it and have now resorted to attacking me personally, is so you can sing:
"Ohhhhh woe to the Dom Ti's who are forced to live in an Fe society." :violin:

You know, Blue, we went through this same nonsense in another thread where a member refused to take personal responsibility for their own issues and blamed all her problems on Fe. This is getting really old, really fast. It is becoming quite obvious why some people are in this forum - to use jungian functions as a scapegoat for all that ails them.
 

Totenkindly

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This is actually probably more accurate than it may seem at first glance. Fe users often act in a "fake" manner in order to accommodate others, or manipulate others' feelings to their own ends -- or else are simply not true to their own feelings and values because they don't understand them. My friend's ENTP ex-girlfriend (who has serious anger management issues) has this problem.

I'd prefer we stay away from words like "fake." In the end, it comes down to motivations, not necessarily the behavior itself... just as bad as saying Fi users are "selfish."

If you need to add a universal label like "fake" in this sort of context, that is as much a product of your preferences as well as the person whose behavior you're labelling as fake.
 
G

garbage

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This is getting really old, really fast. It is becoming quite obvious why some people are in this forum - to use jungian functions as a scapegoat for all that ails them.

Speaking generally and not about the OP, this is a pretty terrible trend. Inferior and shadow functions are seen as "the other," and a sickening confirmation bias.. well, confirms it :doh:

I'd prefer we stay away from words like "fake." In the end, it comes down to motivations, not necessarily the behavior itself... just as bad as saying Fi users are "selfish."

It can be difficult to come up with good terminology when dealing with this stuff. "No, feeling isn't.. feeling, and intuition isn't really intuition." What?

I guess putting terms like "fake" in quotes is about the best we can do--we approximate the concept of what 'fake' is, but.. not really.
 

Salomé

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MLF, it seems to me that you're setting up a false dichotomy and either/or situation (Ti=Truth/Fe=Lying).

I could easily do the same thing like this:

Fe=Benevolence, Charity
Ti= Malevolence, Rancor

Fe=Civil
Ti=Boorish

Fe=Prosocial
Ti=Antisocial

I could go on and on.
You could, and some of those are accurate (I don't think anyone would argue with the last one, for example), but some are highly subjective value judgments (what you see as benevolent, I might see as busy-bodying, for example). There is no such problem with truth vs untruth. We all know when we are lying. So the burden arises to prove in what way functions give rise to attributes or traits.

It seems to me that Ti has no interest in lying (and by lying I mean being in any way false to itself). Its sole preoccupation is Truth, in a very clinical sense. It does not shy away from the unpalatable or even the unethical. Such considerations are disregarded. (Whether a Ti-user actually achieves true clarity and insight is a matter of skill and not preference, of course.) That is not to say that Ti is more moral than Fe, obviously (I would hope that's obvious, anyway).

Aside from self-deception, to which we are all vulnerable, conscious lying is an entirely social process. It is an aspect of social intelligence. A social tool. It requires "theory of mind".

Fe actively asks us to lie to each other ("no, your ass doesn't look big in that", "I'm fine, thanks", "I'd love to visit your mother-in-law") in order to maintain harmonious relations (the positive aspect), or in order to manipulate someone into doing something - which may be for their own benefit, or for our own (the negative aspect). The social rituals and mythologies that Fe upholds are often riddled with deceit: Xmas and Santa Claus, tooth fairies, bogey man, religion etc, etc. Could society even function without lies? I don't know, it's an interesting question to consider. (Another one is why do we have such an aversion to lying when we rely on it to make the world go around - but that one is kinda self-evident.)

As a Fe-dom I don't feel that my Ti opposes my Fe, it more often seems to temper and balance my Fe, especially when I get into the analytics of interpersonal relationships. It shades and nuances the broad strokes Fe tends to make. I agree both can't be dominate; one mode will have to be subordinate to another, but they are not incompatible.
That's an interesting interpretation. Perhaps they are not. Perhaps because Ti is a pretty innocuous function in itself, Fe-users are not suspicious of it. It deals with pretty simple stuff - yes/no, black/white, logical/illogical. Not too much room for interpretation there. It's also something we are taught to acquire through elementary and further education, whereas there is an implicit assumption (Fe-bias again) that everyone will acquire Fe-proficiency without such practiced effort. Perhaps this is one reason why Fe-doms are frequently more well-rounded than Ti-doms?


(What function was I using? :D)
 

PeaceBaby

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Possibly. Definitely an interesting exploration of T v F values, anyway. Did you not find it amusing?
I can enjoy that cringe-inducing socially inappropriate humour that Gervais does so well. But I can only take so much of it.

You know, I didn't find it that funny. Cringe-worthy as you say, and definitely some entertaining moments, but I found it interesting that my hubs (estj) and daughter (intj) found it way funnier than I did. They were LOL'ing especially in the first half.

I'm not really sure why I didn't find it as humorous. Haven't analyzed it deep enough to know why either. I think I'd have to watch it again to articulate.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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Fe 'truth'- agreement with a standard or original (Mainly 'standard').

Ti 'truth'- conformity with fact or reality; verity.

Dictionary.com. There are several other definitions, but I don't see them explaining the point of this thread very well. Now for the falsities.

Ti 'false'- not true or correct; erroneous.

Fe 'false'- not faithful or loyal; treacherous.

Same as above description. Note that these are what appear to be fake and what each would perceive to be fake as well. If we can agree on terms we can move this discussion towards something.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ what would Te and Fi truth then be? (Not to confuse the issue, just curious.)
 

Aleksei

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Ti 'truth'- conformity with fact or reality; verity.
Nitpicking here, but that's just the T version of truth. Breaking it down further, Ti 'truth' is what is logically consistent, whereas Te 'truth' is what is empirically proven.
 

Poki

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Nitpicking here, but that's just the T version of truth. Breaking it down further, Ti 'truth' is what is logically consistent, whereas Te 'truth' is what is empirically proven.

Te - a way of life for the "non-thinking" "thinker" :D
 

PeaceBaby

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Would it follow that Fi truth consists of logically consistent values and Fe truth of empirically observed and proven ones?
 

redacted

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blah blah blah, i think i'm smarter than you.

If you take value judgments out of it, what exactly is the substance of your argument?

It's unfair that society favors one style of thinking over another?

If that's not your argument, I really have no idea what is.

P.S. typing people over the internet based on mutual misunderstanding is retarded.



Edit: you were the one that called Fe the lying function, by the way.
Here is the definition:
conscious value judgments given the premises inherent in the current environment

so where exactly are you getting anything about people? about blind following of moral standards? about lying?

it takes a T function to lie. Because you have to know the truth to consciously say something different.

If you have problems with specific Fe users, fine. But it's not the function's "fault". You're making all sorts of assumptions about what it means to use that function that have absolutely nothing to do with the definition. Your argument has tons of hidden premises that you somehow expect everyone to follow.

I'm sure you'll respond to this in some condescending way, but this is the last time I'm taking the bait.
 

William K

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Would it follow that Fi truth consists of logically consistent values and Fe truth of empirically observed and proven ones?

Not sure about that...

I see it this way,
T truth = facts
F truth = opinion

So,
Fi = personal opinion
Fe = public opinion
 
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