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  1. #191
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    As far as Introverted Thinking being so "objective" and "truthful", lets see what Carl Jung had to say about that:


    Introverted thinking is primarily oriented by the subjective factor....It does not lead from concrete experience back again to the object, but always to the subjective content. External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, though the introvert would often like to make his thinking appear so. It begins with the subject and leads back to the subject, far though it may range into the realm of actual reality....Facts are collected as evidence for a theory, never for their own sakes. (C. G. Jung, Psychological Types, 380.)

    Eat that, suckas!!!!!! :workout:



    ****EDIT: Matter of fact, I think that quote deserves a whole thread of it's own.
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  2. #192
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    This is the reason why Ti is so personal. This function takes external facts and creates a system that is understood by the organizer. This is why Ti can have a hard time being explained. We understood how we organized the structure, but others might not see the connections between our structure. It's our logic not the logic, but the aim of Ti is to find the true function of an object through analysis.

  3. #193
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    As far as Introverted Thinking being so "objective" and "truthful", lets see what Carl Jung had to say about that:



    Eat that, suckas!!!!!! :workout:



    ****EDIT: Matter of fact, I think that quote deserves a whole thread of it's own.
    It is truthful...just truthful about the users subjective experience. Te is more obviously truthful because it focuses on the current environment.

    The logical structure isn't any different, though... the premises are just less obvious for Ti.

  4. #194
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post

    It is truthful...just truthful about the users subjective experience. Te is more obviously truthful because it focuses on the current environment.

    The logical structure isn't any different, though... the premises are just less obvious for Ti.
    Yeah, I can buy that.

    Of course that amounts to not a whole hell of a lot, since that could apply to ANY function.
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  5. #195
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    No one is born with functioning Fe - cultural ideas about socially appropriate behaviour have to be internalised over time.
    Just so you know, this is why you have interpreted me wrong this whole thread.

    Fe is just value-judgments based on the external situation.

    Fe functions fine as a child.

    Maybe a person's interpretation of an external situation becomes more normative over time, but it doesn't mean they don't use Fe before then.

    Interpreting what the external situation actually IS isn't really in Fe's scope.

  6. #196
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay:
    No one is born with functioning Fe - cultural ideas about socially appropriate behaviour have to be internalised over time.
    Holy shit!!!

    Morgan---

    You realize people are actually READING this nonsense, right?

    Have you no SHAME????


    You are un-be-lievable. Oh my GOD.
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    TAKE CARE.

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  7. #197
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Just so you know, this is why you have interpreted me wrong this whole thread.

    Fe is just value-judgments based on the external situation.

    Fe functions fine as a child.

    Maybe a person's interpretation of an external situation becomes more normative over time, but it doesn't mean they don't use Fe before then.

    Interpreting what the external situation actually IS isn't really in Fe's scope.
    Actually, it is you who has misinterpreted me for much of the thread. You're still doing it. No one is born with the ability to even understand where "me" ends and the external world begins. Child development 101.

    And that is an inaccurate definition of Fe. It is about what is important to others and what is appropriate to a given situation.

    'Value judgements about an external situation' can just as easily be made by Introverted Feeling. Orientation and source are not the same thing. In fact, all "situations" are external if you think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #198
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Actually, it is you who has misinterpreted me for much of the thread. You're still doing it. No one is born with the ability to even understand where "me" ends and the external world begins. Child development 101.

    And that is an inaccurate definition of Fe. It is about what is important to others and what is appropriate to a given situation.

    'Value judgements about an external situation' can just as easily be made by Introverted Feeling. Orientation and source are not the same thing. In fact, all "situations" are external if you think about it.


    Of course all situations are external, but then you lose the descriptive usefulness of the i/e distinction.

    When Fe and Fi do the same thing, why call them something different?

    Feeling is conscious and value-oriented. If the person using Feeling is more comfortable with external premises, they prefer Fe. If the person using Feeling is more comfortable with their own personal premises, they prefer Fi.

    Fe users will feel uncomfortable making a value-claim without knowing all of the factors around them.

    Fi users will view the factors around them as irrelevant, and will think (the normal dictionary definition) through their personal value-judgment in more depth.

    Other people, societal values, that kind of shit -- that's surface level stuff -- those are manifestations of what the actual difference between the two really is.

    A 5-year old can be a clear Fe user even if they know nothing about "social values". They use Fe as long as they think looking at the external situation is more relevant to a value judgment than looking internally is.

    You can nitpick my terms "external" and "internal" all you want, but you'd be missing my point.

  9. #199
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    When Fe and Fi do the same thing, why call them something different?
    ...because they don't do the same thing. Any more than Te and Ti or Ne and Ni....
    But *sigh* let's not get into that.

    A 5-year old can be a clear Fe user even if they know nothing about "social values". They use Fe as long as they think looking at the external situation is more relevant to a value judgment than looking internally is.
    Fe is not about looking at external situations. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's perceiving, not judging. Fe is about valuing external standards. I'm not making this shit up. It's textbook. And I'm not nit-picking. It's fundamental to an understanding of the theory.

    If a 5y/o is using Fe, it's because they've already started to absorb and identify what those standards are or what other's needs are. This imprinting process starts very early (but not before birth - obviously).

    Anyway, this thread has been a huge a waste of time. But thanks for trying to stick with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #200
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    A 5-year old can be a clear Fe user even if they know nothing about "social values". They use Fe as long as they think looking at the external situation is more relevant to a value judgment than looking internally is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Fe is not about looking at external situations. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, it's perceiving, not judging. Fe is about valuing external standards. I'm not making this shit up. It's textbook. And I'm not nit-picking. It's fundamental to an understanding of the theory.
    Attention K-Mart Shoppers, there is a Blue Light Special in aisle 9:

    There is not one textbook, and there is not one theory. I will quote from one of many textbooks:

    "Fe is a decision-making process. It focuses on the objective, external world."

    Key features:

    • Is an objective decision-making process that seeks to create or maintain harmony in the environment.
    • Has an outer focus that is primarily about people and their relationships.
    • Views people, events, situations, and objects in terms of their effects on people.
    • Is actively concerned for others' needs, desires, and values.
    • Prefers to avoid outward conflict, but can become unyielding in situations involving a threat to another person.
    • Establishes and maintains social conventions.
    • Is driven to interact with people.


    ( p.94 Building Blocks of Personality Type, Haas.)

    And that was just a small taste.
    If you don't know the difference between Judging and Perceiving, there isn't much point in engaging in conversation until you grasp the basics:

    Perceiving—how we focus our attention and gather information


    extraverted Sensing (Se)
    introverted Sensing (Si)
    extraverted intuition(Ne)
    introverted Intuiting (Ni)

    Judging—how we organize our experiences and make decisions


    extraverted Thinking (Te)
    introverted Thinking (Ti)
    extraverted Feeling (Fe)
    introverted Feeling (Fi)

    Keys 2 Cognition - Cognitive Processes

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