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  1. #161
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    T is also conscious, and it's also chosen because it's a value of the user. We value detachment in our evaluation process.

    So while values -> motivation, everyone has values, and one of T's values is using T and approaching things in a detached fashion.
    This is true. But it's a meta-value.

    Of course everyone has values, everyone also has all of the functions at their disposal. But Ti doesn't do "what do I care about?" If it did, we wouldn't need Fi, would we?

    We're trying to delineate function use. Why this is so controversial is truly baffling.

    What no one has yet asked is "What function do Ti-doms use when they lie?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    This is true. But it's a meta-value.

    Of course everyone has values, everyone also has all of the functions at their disposal. But Ti doesn't do "what do I care about?" If it did, we wouldn't need Fi, would we?

    We're trying to delineate function use. Why this is so controversial is truly baffling.

    What no one has yet asked is "What function do Ti-doms use when they lie?"
    I would say for me its Se with Ni. Things that are semi true and my focus becomes truth rather then the lie. I can move from Ni concept to using Se in a shallow or blurred manner. Some call it a white lie, others call it partial truth. For me the focus is on the truth.

    edit: sometimes its external truth, sometimes its internal truth.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #163
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    People lie with all the functions. I would say that the lies are complex in different ways for each type. Let's take ISTP. When the person is trying to create a lie he wants to make it believable. That is his ultimate goal. What does he have at his immediate disposal. Se: This function is searched through by Ti to make sure that the pictoral information that he is going to lie about makes sense according to the lie (that being it looks like the truth). Ni searches through the lie(s) (Se-Ti construct) in order to see if every angle (or in this case most of the angles because it is teritary this aspect of the lie may not be as complex) of this lie has been covered so no one uncovers the truth. Finally Fe comes in here and examines the amount of damage this lie will cause and ultimately chooses based on that. These will be the aspects of an ISTP's lie that will be the most complex (barring the situation at hand).

  4. #164
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Maybe...but you didn't cover the first part - which function provides the motivation to lie?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #165
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I know that I lie sometimes to prove a logical point; if someone is being an idiot, or some sort and I'll tell them a lie just to show how gullable/illogical/sheepish they may be. So because of my need for logical thinking if Ti is being ignored by someone else I lie. Motivation a la Ti. Howeva this is a value (a personal one at that) so I'd say Fi. When a value is crossed people lie to prove points. This is an Fi based lie.

    It depends on whether you believe Fi being the last in our list of functions that makes them unimportant and weak, or unused and unrestrained in strength.

  6. #166
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I know that I lie sometimes to prove a logical point; if someone is being an idiot, or some sort and I'll tell them a lie just to show how gullable/illogical/sheepish they may be. So because of my need for logical thinking if Ti is being ignored by someone else I lie. Motivation a la Ti. Howeva this is a value (a personal one at that) so I'd say Fi. When a value is crossed people lie to prove points. This is an Fi based lie.

    It depends on whether you believe Fi being the last in our list of functions that makes them unimportant and weak, or unused and unrestrained in strength.
    First of all, Fi isn't last in the INTP function list, Fe is. (according to Thomson, also check out the Cog Funcs tests - for INTPs Fi>Fe in most cases. I actually have stats somewhere, but not to hand).

    That's not a Ti motivation for lying. I read that as a Fe motivation - your intent is to manipulate the person/situation. It's also immature (no offence, but if you have to resort to lying to prove a point then you don't really have a case), ergo inferior Fe.

    Devil's advocate is something else. It doesn't fall within my definition of lying because there is no intent to deceive - it's a rhetorical device. Rhetoric is about persuasion though - which again is Fe or requires Fe use.
    Ti doesn't care if anyone else knows the Truth - it is enough that it exists and is understood. Making other people understand is a secondary consideration for Ti-doms - if it comes up at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I know that I lie sometimes to prove a logical point; if someone is being an idiot, or some sort and I'll tell them a lie just to show how gullable/illogical/sheepish they may be. So because of my need for logical thinking if Ti is being ignored by someone else I lie. Motivation a la Ti. Howeva this is a value (a personal one at that) so I'd say Fi. When a value is crossed people lie to prove points. This is an Fi based lie.

    It depends on whether you believe Fi being the last in our list of functions that makes them unimportant and weak, or unused and unrestrained in strength.
    Nice way to force values on people Sounds TeFi to me, the tides can be turned and a FeTi user can pull that same thing. Some people dont really care about those things, they dont fear being gullible, illogical, or sheepish.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #168
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I know that I lie sometimes to prove a logical point; if someone is being an idiot, or some sort and I'll tell them a lie just to show how gullable/illogical/sheepish they may be. So because of my need for logical thinking if Ti is being ignored by someone else I lie. Motivation a la Ti. Howeva this is a value (a personal one at that) so I'd say Fi. When a value is crossed people lie to prove points. This is an Fi based lie.

    It depends on whether you believe Fi being the last in our list of functions that makes them unimportant and weak, or unused and unrestrained in strength.
    It's pathetic for you to claim people lie when their values are crossed, just because you do it. That's pure horse shit, and a cop out.

  9. #169
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I believe I said "I know that I.." meaning I don't know if others do, which in turn means I excluded everyone else. It's illogical to say that people don't lie when their values are crossed. I think people can be desperate enough to do so.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    First of all, Fi isn't last in the INTP function list, Fe is. (according to Thomson, also check out the Cog Funcs tests - for INTPs Fi>Fe in most cases. I actually have stats somewhere, but not to hand).

    That's not a Ti motivation for lying. I read that as a Fe motivation - your intent is to manipulate the person/situation. It's also immature (no offence, but if you have to resort to lying to prove a point then you don't really have a case), ergo inferior Fe.

    Devil's advocate is something else. It doesn't fall within my definition of lying because there is no intent to deceive - it's a rhetorical device. Rhetoric is about persuasion though - which again is Fe or requires Fe use.
    Ti doesn't care if anyone else knows the Truth - it is enough that it exists and is understood. Making other people understand is a secondary consideration for Ti-doms - if it comes up at all.
    I was considering the last 'shadow function' to be the last function that we use. I don't know which theory that corresponds with, but I wanted to clarify that. What does one do when they are not understood? It may be a stretch to say, but lying is a form of reaching the truth. I may lie at times to get to the truth because the lie analyzes why it is not the truth. This forces to analyze what is true and makes the truth known. So if Ti simply wishes that the truth exists and is understood they may lie in order to do so for the points previous to this statement. I don't really care if it's an unhealthy way of doing things it is another means to the same end.

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