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  1. #151
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    It goes like this:
    If it's conscious, it's T or F.
    If it's unconscious, it's S or N.
    If it's conscious and value-oriented, it's F.
    If it's conscious and not value-oriented, it's T.
    If it's unconscious and concrete, it's S (for example, the computation in the occipital lobe to convert 2-dimensional information into 3-dimensional representations).
    If it's unconscious and not concrete, it's N (for example, integrating the 3-dimensional representations into a metaphorical framework).
    I like this. How would you add the perspectives of introversion / extraversion to that?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #152
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    If you consider this to be the summation, then you are with those that believe opposites can at least exist within each other, yes?
    In some ways, was going through an odd expression phase yesterday, wouldn't trust it much.

  3. #153
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I like this. How would you add the perspectives of introversion / extraversion to that?
    Thank you for actually trying to follow me.

    Introversion and extroversion isn't as clear a divide, so I don't think of it as being useful to the same degree. But it does definitely make a distinction that is descriptively useful sometimes (like when typing a person, not usually when attributing a behavior to a function, though).

    I'll use Feeling as an example. Feeling needs some input (what the value judgment is about), does some kind of computation (which for purposes of discussion is not worth fleshing out), and spits out either a positive or negative value judgment. Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the external standard (in other words, current external circumstances). Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the internal environment (in other words, current thought process/psychological state).

    Another way to explain it is Fe is the value-stuff assuming the external environment takes precedence and Fi is the value-stuff assuming the current internal state takes precedence. Someone using Fe won't feel comfortable making a value judgment without making sure they have all relevant data about the current external situation. Fi users won't care about the external situation, as their understanding of value-judgments is based on their own ideals.

    This is analogous for Thinking. Ti users Think about what they're already thinking about. Te users Think about what's going on in front of them. That's why Ti goes more in depth, but Te is more feasible.

    For perceiving I need to use a bit different of an explanation.

    I'll use Intuition here as an example. Ne users have the attitude that they don't want to miss an environmental opportunity to make a new connection. Ni users have the attitude that the environment is a distraction in making deep connections about what they're currently thinking about.

    Sensing works similarly. Se wants to take in as much different environmental information as possible (their goal is breadth). Si wants to take in as much information about the current thing they're thinking about as possible, so they dismiss what's currently going on in favor of seeing all the details of one thing (their goal is depth).

    Breadth and depth is a good analogy for introversion and extroversion.

  4. #154
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    In some ways, was going through an odd expression phase yesterday, wouldn't trust it much.
    Noted.

  5. #155
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Thank you for actually trying to follow me.

    Introversion and extroversion isn't as clear a divide, so I don't think of it as being useful to the same degree. But it does definitely make a distinction that is descriptively useful sometimes (like when typing a person, not usually when attributing a behavior to a function, though).

    I'll use Feeling as an example. Feeling needs some input (what the value judgment is about), does some kind of computation (which for purposes of discussion is not worth fleshing out), and spits out either a positive or negative value judgment. Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the external standard (in other words, current external circumstances). Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the internal environment (in other words, current thought process/psychological state).

    Another way to explain it is Fe is the value-stuff assuming the external environment takes precedence and Fi is the value-stuff assuming the current internal state takes precedence. Someone using Fe won't feel comfortable making a value judgment without making sure they have all relevant data about the current external situation. Fi users won't care about the external situation, as their understanding of value-judgments is based on their own ideals.

    This is analogous for Thinking. Ti users Think about what they're already thinking about. Te users Think about what's going on in front of them. That's why Ti goes more in depth, but Te is more feasible.

    For perceiving I need to use a bit different of an explanation.

    I'll use Intuition here as an example. Ne users have the attitude that they don't want to miss an environmental opportunity to make a new connection. Ni users have the attitude that the environment is a distraction in making deep connections about what they're currently thinking about.

    Sensing works similarly. Se wants to take in as much different environmental information as possible (their goal is breadth). Si wants to take in as much information about the current thing they're thinking about as possible, so they dismiss what's currently going on in favor of seeing all the details of one thing (their goal is depth).

    Breadth and depth is a good analogy for introversion and extroversion.
    Sounds good...
    If you consider functions to be processing blocks then I guess looking at where the input parameters are coming from is one possible way of determining if it's acting in an introverted or extraverted manner.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

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  6. #156
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Sounds good...
    If you consider functions to be processing blocks then I guess looking at where the input parameters are coming from is one possible way of determining if it's acting in an introverted or extraverted manner.
    That's the only way I can think of to define introversion/extroversion...

    It's not like the cognitive mechanisms for the four functions are actually any different when a function is introverted or extroverted. I/E is just a way of talking about the directional attitude of the function.

    Whether a function is introverted or extroverted really is just a matter of what kind of stuff it looks at (aka the inputs).

  7. #157
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    I missed some interesting earlier posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    well i think it's interesting too...it's like kids blurting out exactly what's on their mind or having a tantrum when they're upset. they have not yet learned to adjust their behavior to make others feel better...it's total honesty and i love it....sometimes i wanna have a tantrum too and it's just not allowed at my age...kinda not fair.
    Kids don't only tell the truth when they're upset. (Actually, it's adults who often have to be upset to really let rip with what they truly think).
    The INTP is often described as childlike (which is not the same as childish) and pure/innocent and it is perhaps as you say, this feature of children that they most emulate. No one is born with functioning Fe - cultural ideas about socially appropriate behaviour have to be internalised over time. Ti seems to be the function that most resists such influence. (Fi less so, because it still has more of a personal / interpersonal focus).

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    A good post.
    Eysenck found a high correlation between the L (Lie) scale and Fe-kind characteristics.
    It supports the view Fe is demonstration of Feeling.

    Demonstration

    show
    display
    exhibition
    proof
    Can you provide a link please? I found a study about the link between neuroticism and lying - is that the work you are referring to?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #158
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    some ideas are too stupid to consider
    And some people are just too stupid to consider them.
    Do you actually have anything to say? Because you've made half a dozen posts which consist of nothing more than laughing at and ridiculing /insulting other people and their ideas whilst contributing nothing of your own. This is no more than a display of profound ignorance.

    I mean, dude...
    Similarly, you are personally motivated to do things because you're a person, not because you use Feeling.
    LOL. Have you ever even read a book about CF theory?
    Why don't you get back to us when you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This is just insulting.

    What the hell is your problem?

    If you don't even attempt to try to understand something, calling them autistic because you don't get it right away just makes you an asshole.
    Yep, and yet I'm the one who gets the infraction for calling him on his stupid tantrums...
    (smells like Fe-bias to me...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I just have a real hard time with people preemptively boycotting debate of outlandish ideas, and I find it more and more recurring in this forum so I had to say my piece.
    It was ever thus. People R dumb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #159
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Imagine your conscious mind (jung equates this with judging). Now imagine you have to divide it into two parts, labeling some stuff "value-based" and other stuff "not value based". The "value based" stuff is F. It is all of F. There is no F anywhere not in this part you've labeled. That is F's definition. Same logic for T (with the "not value based" part).

    So it's not much of a stretch to say conscious motivation is F. Motivation deals with personal importance, therefore it's value based. (Motivation in a framework where "personal importance" has no meaning must also have no meaning.)
    It's unfortunately that T is also conscious, and it's also chosen because it's a value of the user. We value detachment in our evaluation process.

    So while values -> motivation, everyone has values, and one of T's values is using T and approaching things in a detached fashion.

    I don't think it's as clear-cut as you are making it either, because of this basic, simple truth.


    As for the unconscious (jung equates this to perceiving), the concrete stuff is S, and the abstract stuff is N. So if you're motivated by something subconsciously, It's either S or N at work. I guess I might have made too bold of a claim because concrete stuff can be motivating, too. But I guess I was thinking of motivation as a more abstract psychological term, so I said it was N (because if anything is unconscious and abstract, it is N).
    Again, you're over-simplifying. iNtuition is about focusing on the ramifications and connections between data rather than the data directly. It's not equivalent to the subconscious/unconscious.

    And who says the unconscious is always abstracted? Do you think Sensors still are driven by concepts, or are there very specific details that have been ingrained into the subconscious that they are responding to? It's not a concept necessarily, it can be a literal sense impression that people respond autonomatically too.

    Sometimes the conceptualization occurs when we TALK about it -- i.e., someone had a specific bad experience, now they operate a certain way in real life that is not appropriate as a direct result, and N's conceptualize the specific event into an idea that is then discussed as if the person specifically has that concept embeded... but in reality, it's still really just the specific event that was embedded.

    This is very simple stuff.
    Apparently not... based on just how there is still disagreement over whether your suggestions make sense here.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #160
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I think Te can give plenty motivation for lying as a means to an end: I want money, I want this person to sleep with me, I want this person to leave me alone, I want to take over the world...and if lying is more strategically efficient, then Te could be the basis.
    Nope. None of those are Te. (I want implies a value judgment). If I do X, Y will be the result - is logic at work, but logic cannot tell us what we want and therefore cannot provide motivation.

    In fact, I'm sure if we really reflected upon it, we could come up with a bunch of "function lies" that don't involve Fe or Te.
    There is no such thing as a function lie. That's a meaningless expression. I've already defined terms, either stick to them, or show why they don't apply, all this other stuff is bullshit and clouds the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'll use Feeling as an example. Feeling needs some input (what the value judgment is about), does some kind of computation (which for purposes of discussion is not worth fleshing out), and spits out either a positive or negative value judgment. Fe is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the external standard (in other words, current external circumstances). Fi is a label that describes when the input to the Feeling function comes from the internal environment (in other words, current thought process/psychological state).
    FYP.

    Thinking about this, no...it's not quite right.

    Fe is the internalized external standard. It's the function we use to determine what that standard is and how to work with/around that.
    Fi is the externalized internal standard. It's the function we use to determine what is right (irrespective of what others think) and how to work with that.
    ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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