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  1. #131
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post

    How is Ne related to open-mindedness?
    Sytpg---it's very simple.

    I don't personally believe that being Ne-dom makes you more open-minded than others.
    It's just that every time I reject an idea someone says, "Dude, I thought you were an Ne-dom. I thought you were supposed to be open-minded."

    In fact, I might be mistaken, but I think you were one of the people who said that to me.


    I was anticipating a comment and addressing it preemptively.

    The way I said it implied as much, but if you missed it, no big deal.

    I was going to delete that part because it was unnecessarily defensive, but I guess you beat me to it.


    but BACK ON TOPIC......

    I just have a HUGE problem with people characterizing Fe as "fake" and an even BIGGER problem with people characterizing it as the source of all lying!!!!!

    It's simply ridiculous and UNTRUE.

    But then again, since I'm not a Ti-dom, I can't possibly know what's true or untrue---unless I'm temporarily using Ti --right???? :rolli:

    (THAT WAS SARCASM, and it's in reference to some of the comments in this thread, in case you missed THAT too.)


    The suggestion in this thread (indirect as it may be, though it seems pretty direct to me) is that Fe users are highly prone to fakeness and lying.

    If you don't have a problem with that, fine.
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  2. #132
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Disagreeing with something preposterous doesn't mean you can't think about it. I will say I am partial to the idea that Fe is more prone to white lies at the very least. I don't think it's the source of all lying no. And I don't think Ne is source of all open-mindedness but I think it helps by definition, yes.

    I just have a real hard time with people preemptively boycotting debate of outlandish ideas, and I find it more and more recurring in this forum so I had to say my piece. Anyway, carry on.

  3. #133
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Wow. This thread is riddled with absurd ideas.

    Yes, I'm an Ne dom. No, I'm not narrow-minded, but some ideas are just too stupid to consider.

    ...

    Evan ACTUALLY SAID:
    Conscious motivation for anything comes from Feeling (either Fe or Fi).
    Unconscious motivation for anything comes from Intuition (either Ne or Ni).
    Evan---I'm making a conscious effort not to laugh heartily at this statement.

    I can't imagine where you're getting this from.

    Please explain it, if you can.
    If you think this is "too stupid to consider", you're probably missing the fact that there was no value-judgment in what I said whatsoever.

    Imagine your conscious mind (jung equates this with judging). Now imagine you have to divide it into two parts, labeling some stuff "value-based" and other stuff "not value based". The "value based" stuff is F. It is all of F. There is no F anywhere not in this part you've labeled. That is F's definition. Same logic for T (with the "not value based" part).

    So it's not much of a stretch to say conscious motivation is F. Motivation deals with personal importance, therefore it's value based. (Motivation in a framework where "personal importance" has no meaning must also have no meaning.)

    As for the unconscious (jung equates this to perceiving), the concrete stuff is S, and the abstract stuff is N. So if you're motivated by something subconsciously, It's either S or N at work. I guess I might have made too bold of a claim because concrete stuff can be motivating, too. But I guess I was thinking of motivation as a more abstract psychological term, so I said it was N (because if anything is unconscious and abstract, it is N).

    This is very simple stuff.

  4. #134
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post

    If you think this is "too stupid to consider", you're probably missing the fact that there was no value-judgment in what I said whatsoever.

    Imagine your conscious mind (jung equates this with judging). Now imagine you have to divide it into two parts, labeling some stuff "value-based" and other stuff "not value based". The "value based" stuff is F. It is all of F. There is no F anywhere not in this part you've labeled. That is F's definition. Same logic for T (with the "not value based" part).

    So it's not much of a stretch to say conscious motivation is F. Motivation deals with personal importance, therefore it's value based. (Motivation in a framework where "personal importance" has no meaning must also have no meaning.)

    As for the unconscious (jung equates this to perceiving), the concrete stuff is S, and the abstract stuff is N. So if you're motivated by something subconsciously, It's either S or N at work. I guess I might have made too bold of a claim because concrete stuff can be motivating, too. But I guess I was thinking of motivation as a more abstract psychological term, so I said it was N (because if anything is unconscious and abstract, it is N).

    This is very simple stuff.
    No, when I said that some ideas are too stupid to consider I was not including your idea about motivation, Feeling, Intuition, etc.

    Though I found it kind of laughable, I thought it was worth considering, which is why I asked for an explanation.

    However, I still disagree (And still find it laughable).

    It seems obvious to me that you're making too bold of a claim when you say:
    Conscious motivation for anything comes from Feeling (either Fe or Fi).
    Unconscious motivation for anything comes from Intuition (either Ne or Ni).
    You even recognized that in the case of your statement about Intuition. But for some reason, you're unable to see it in regard to your statement about Feeling.



    *****

    EDIT: I'd also like to add that it's surprising how literal you seem to be taking the functions.

    You see things with your eyeballs, not with Sensing functions, right?

    Similarly, you are personally motivated to do things because you're a person, not because you use Feeling.

    If this is already extremely obvious to you, please disregard it. But it seems necessary to point out, given what you've said about motivation and the functions.
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  5. #135
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I'm glad this thread went somewhere.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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  7. #137
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    No, when I said that some ideas are too stupid to consider I was not including your idea about motivation, Feeling, Intuition, etc.

    Though I found it kind of laughable, I thought it was worth considering, which is why I asked for an explanation.

    However, I still disagree (And still find it laughable).

    It seems obvious to me that you're making too bold of a claim when you say:


    You even recognized that in the case of your statement about Intuition. But for some reason, you're unable to see it in regard to your statement about Feeling.



    *****

    EDIT: I'd also like to add that it's surprising how literal you seem to be taking the functions.

    You see things with your eyeballs, not with Sensing functions, right?
    Your eyeballs are like a camera. A person doesn't see things with them. They convert the two-dimensional images on the retinas into complex three-dimensional representations (which takes a ridiculous amount of computation).

    The conversion process is an instance of the function Sensing.

    Similarly, you are personally motivated to do things because you're a person, not because you use Feeling.
    You are a person and you use feeling are not in contradiction whatsoever.

    The point of the functions is they DIVIDE cognition into mutually exclusive sub-categories. When you divide cognition into four, that means if you add the four back together, you get all of cognition.

    There is nothing in cognition that isn't an instance of a function. That's the point of the functions in the first place!

    95% of the people on this forum define functions by a list of surface level characteristics for some reason. I define them by how cognition can be divided.

    It goes like this:
    If it's conscious, it's T or F.
    If it's unconscious, it's S or N.
    If it's conscious and value-oriented, it's F.
    If it's conscious and not value-oriented, it's T.
    If it's unconscious and concrete, it's S (for example, the computation in the occipital lobe to convert 2-dimensional information into 3-dimensional representations).
    If it's unconscious and not concrete, it's N (for example, integrating the 3-dimensional representations into a metaphorical framework).

    Just because most of the people you get information from say one thing doesn't mean they're right.

  8. #138
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Oh man, I thought there was hope, but you're lost in a Ti maze, Evan.

    So long and good luck.
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    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  9. #139
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Oh man, I thought there was hope, but you're lost in a Ti maze, Evan.

    So long and good luck.
    You mean you're uncomfortable analyzing counter-frameworks to the one you've confirmation biased yourself into believing?

    Lost in a Ti maze is a bullshit way to dismiss my explanation. It's simpler than yours and accounts for more than yours can, so by occam's razor, mine is better.

  10. #140
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    In a way Ti being compared to a maze is ironic. Seeing as the function is used half of the time to form logical frame works.

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