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Thread: Jung Vs. Freud

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    Default Jung Vs. Freud

    Without wanting to kick of a sectarian brawl who do you favour between Jung and Freud and what's your opinion of the schismatics surrounding the emergence of psycho-analysis and analytical psychology? Do you even make the distinction your head or do you treat it as all part and parcel of the same general theorising? Do you think one was more superior to the other? Which do you think was the better writer and which do you think history has been kinder to or pop culture more receptive of? Has one been disseminated more than the other and which do you think is the most wrongly reviled?

    I've always wondered why Jung has been accused more often of being the creator of a personality cult, especially since he did not do anything consciously to create that and preserve that as a legacy, unlike Freud, and why that is, I think Jung is, often wrongly, accused of being much more esoteric and mystic than he actually is, properly understood.

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    I think they were both hacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I think they're both hacks.
    Yeah but who would win in a fist fight? Huh? Answer me that one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah but who would win in a fist fight? Huh? Answer me that one!
    Jung did acid. Freud did coke. Freud would therefore kick Jung's ass while Jung was punching at an imaginary unicorn. QED.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Jung did acid. Freud did coke. Freud would therefore kick Jung's ass while Jung was punching at an imaginary unicorn. QED.
    Didnt know that Jung did acid, I knew that Freud did cocaine to break his addiction to something else, opiates? Heroin? I dont know.

    I think Jung would pull a neat cane sword or something and run Freud through. He'd be like "take that penis envier" or something.

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    I'm better versed in Freud than in Jung, and even then, not really well-versed, but from what I can tell, I see them as very similar. Both of them proposed that personality can get split off (Freud called it the unconscious, Jung called in the Shadow) and that we avoid certain thoughts, experiences, and pain because we find it unmanageable or intolerable. Both thought that the goal of therapy was to unite the individual and his components by drawing out the psychic material that was pushed away. They took their insights in different directions, but I don't see them as incompatible. At least, not the parts that I've seen.

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    Freud had a tripartite consciousness and the unconscious, so you got Id, base instincts, Ego, rational mind, and Super Ego, big daddy mind, in his self-regulating version of consciousness and the unconscious where all the repressed, forgotten, dissociated things lurked to exert influences which messed with the conscious mind.

    Jung had a hell of a thing for his version of the mind but he still had a consciousness/unconscious divide, instead he had ego, self, shadow, persona and then archetypes which had been activated and integrated into the personality as complexes. If you where to visualise it it looks a bit like a circle and the complexes revolve around the circumference like a constellation. Jung went on about mandallas (spelling) because they resembled his version of consciousness in pictorial form.

    Jung's version of the unconscious is split three levels too, usually showing up in dreams, there's the personal, cultural/social, then the collective/ancestoral, he talked about this being like a house, the decorated upper level, derelict middle and basement/cave. I cant remember off hand whether archetypes are associated with one level or all of them.

    Freud's theory is sexual, in a sense much broader than we use it today which incorporates much of the psycho-social, while Jung's is symbolic, so for Freud symbols will disguise sexual meanings while for Jung sexual meanings are themselves only symbolic of something. At least that's my interpretation/understanding from reading.

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    Yeah, I'm afraid for the life of this thread as I think it might bring out a lot of division and ad hominem attacks.

    I would never say one was superior to the other in any way. But to answer your question, I would put myself under the category of not making any distinctions in my head. Like with many things I read, I only remember and assimilate what is useful to me and build my own system around that. My goals being first to understand myself - and if I feel like it, try and understand others. Having said that though, I prefer Jung and feel he was more wrongly reviled, though I would think, at this point, both are fairly reviled.

    Why do I prefer Jung? Two words: cognitive functions. It's an essential part of how I understand myself and the world now for reasons that are very obvious to me and I hope is obvious to most who are familiar with it. I know that he can be considered esoteric and mystic, but it's usually by those who haven't considered his work with enough open-mindedness. His approach to his research is methodical, analytical, and insightful and though his writing is very dry and seemingly esoteric - his ambitions are not. Tough to go into the details without making this a teal deer post, but suffice it to say, I think it takes a certain kind of personal honesty and humility to be able to approach a topic as mystical as synchronicity (or ESP - extra-sensory perception) as an academic. He's written an actual book called Synchronicity if anyone wants to check it out. Yet there wasn't a single course, at least at my school, that read Jung at all. Or even any professor for that matter that I could find.

    Freud on the other hand I've had to read dozens of times for numerous classes. Especially "Civilization and Its Discontents." Like most theorists I've read, I found that though his critique of the contemporary modern society was dead on, any normative theories deriving from either a critique of the modern man or society were faulty, at best. Normative judgments almost always have a ring of personal projection to them. While Freud was a big deal to a lot of people and is rightfully considered influential, he is mostly ignored nowadays in contemporary academia, though his legacy remains - at least this was the case the last time I checked. Karl Marx was kind of the same way in that respect. Nowadays, I know academics are more into the psychoanalysts that emerged from the direct influence of Freud, rather than Freud himself.

    The real disagreements and division between them in my eyes are their theories on the unconscious. Freud saw it as more of a repository for emotional baggage while Jung saw it in a more positive affirming light. I'd say that they're both right and their respective theories are certainly not in direct contradiction to each other.

    I think it's pretty clear Freud is more popular, at least in general society. And I hate to say it without inviting a lot of misunderstanding, but I think it's really an academic politics thing with regard to the question of popularity and reviled-ness.

    That's all I got. We'll see how this thread unfolds.

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    Damnit, thread would get hot just as I'm about to go to sleep.

    Until tommorrow Jung for the win but I like them both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Freud had a tripartite consciousness and the unconscious, so you got Id, base instincts, Ego, rational mind, and Super Ego, big daddy mind, in his self-regulating version of consciousness and the unconscious where all the repressed, forgotten, dissociated things lurked to exert influences which messed with the conscious mind.

    Jung had a hell of a thing for his version of the mind but he still had a consciousness/unconscious divide, instead he had ego, self, shadow, persona and then archetypes which had been activated and integrated into the personality as complexes. If you where to visualise it it looks a bit like a circle and the complexes revolve around the circumference like a constellation. Jung went on about mandallas (spelling) because they resembled his version of consciousness in pictorial form.

    Jung's version of the unconscious is split three levels too, usually showing up in dreams, there's the personal, cultural/social, then the collective/ancestoral, he talked about this being like a house, the decorated upper level, derelict middle and basement/cave. I cant remember off hand whether archetypes are associated with one level or all of them.
    With the exception of the collective unconscious, I'm not sure they're that much different. They're definitely more similar than they are different.

    Freud's theory is sexual, in a sense much broader than we use it today which incorporates much of the psycho-social, while Jung's is symbolic, so for Freud symbols will disguise sexual meanings while for Jung sexual meanings are themselves only symbolic of something. At least that's my interpretation/understanding from reading.
    But the idea is still the same, no? That the mind runs away from things that it finds intolerable and reminds us in the form of symbols. I suppose what you're saying is that Freud thought the intolerable thoughts concern sex, while Jung thought they concerned thoughts about ourselves and our defects (the Shadow). Jung is like Freud version 2.0. Same basic design, but updated and easier to navigate.

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