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Traits of Females who are abandoned by/lose their father at a young age

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Work on your reading comprehension & try again. ;)
That's the point.
Or maybe you need to work on your general comprehension. You said "enneagram is nurture", then '2 people with the same nurture can end up different E-types'.
Does not compute.

You also said MBTI is nature, whilst E is nurture. But the attributes measured are too similar and the correlations between types too strong for there not to be a common cause. Again: does not compute.

If the "introversion" of Jung et al is biologically (rather than environmentally) determined, then it's also likely that the "withdrawal" of E-types is. Think about it.
I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
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594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Daddy issues usually show up in sexuality or most commonly.

For some types.. but not across the board (i.e., not for Fives, probably).

Morgan Le Fay said:
I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.

Agreed.

That seems to be supported both theoretically AND statistically.
 

Xenon

(blankpages)
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
832
MBTI Type
INTP
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5
Or maybe you need to work on your general comprehension. You said "enneagram is nurture", then '2 people with the same nurture can end up different E-types'.
Does not compute.

You also said MBTI is nature, whilst E is nurture. But the attributes measured are too similar and the correlations between types too strong for there not to be a common cause. Again: does not compute.

Her posts make sense to me. It sounds like you're defining 'nurture' purely as 'environment' (which...yeah, that's what it normally means) while OrangeAppled is defining it as what one experiences, which is dependent on both your environment and your inborn temperament. So she's drawing a distinction between 'set at birth' (preferred cognitive functions) and 'arising as a result of life experiences' (enneagram motivations).

So, to use your example earlier, even if someone is set at birth to be overwhelmed by ordinary emotional stimulation, the type 5 motivations to withdraw and detach may still develop as a result of experiencing that sense of overwhelm, that feeling of intrusion, rather than being present all along.

I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.

True. I believe there are limits to what can happen with each temperament. Perhaps there is more possibility for variation than it seems though, if we consider the effect of culture. For example, "normal affection" can vary across culture and time periods, so maybe there are places where more reserved, easily stimulated children are less likely to become fives. Or, there might also be cultures in which introverted children have an easier time becoming eights.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
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Messages
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Her posts make sense to me. It sounds like you're defining 'nurture' purely as 'environment' (which...yeah, that's what it normally means) while OrangeAppled is defining it as what one experiences, which is dependent on both your environment and your inborn temperament. So she's drawing a distinction between 'set at birth' (preferred cognitive functions) and 'arising as a result of life experiences' (enneagram motivations).
Not to be pedantic, but if people are going to use terms other than in the accepted sense, they need to supply revised definitions, or use a more appropriate word, not turn around and ignorantly suggest that someone else's reading comprehension is at fault, when it's really their failure to define their terms that may be creating misunderstanding.

But in fact, she is using the term in the traditionally accepted sense - hence the use of the expression "nature vs nurture" which implies mutual exclusivity.

Whereas, in reality it is more like nature via nurture - gene expression is very much influenced by environment. But there are limits to the effects of environment.

So, to use your example earlier, even if someone is set at birth to be overwhelmed by ordinary emotional stimulation, the type 5 motivations to withdraw and detach may still develop as a result of experiencing that sense of overwhelm, that feeling of intrusion, rather than being present all along.
I don't see that as being a useful distinction. The potential is present all along. That's all Nature means. Genes encode potential. They almost always have to activated in some way by the environment.
I see this stuff in terms of thresholds. If a person's nervous system is so calibrated that exposure to a normal amount of stimulation is experienced as overwhelming - that is Nature, pure and simple. Sure, maybe if they spent their whole life in a flotation tank, they'd never be overwhelmed - but it's not useful to construct unrealistic scenarios like that.
What is the root cause of this over-sensitivity? Is it environmental (early trauma) or genetic (innate (in)tolerance)? The former is Nurture, the latter is Nature (reinforced by Nurture).
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
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INFP
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4w5
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sp/sx
Or maybe you need to work on your general comprehension. You said "enneagram is nurture", then '2 people with the same nurture can end up different E-types'.
Does not compute.

You also said MBTI is nature, whilst E is nurture. But the attributes measured are too similar and the correlations between types too strong for there not to be a common cause. Again: does not compute.

If the "introversion" of Jung et al is biologically (rather than environmentally) determined, then it's also likely that the "withdrawal" of E-types is. Think about it.
I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.

Enneagram is about emotional motivations, which I see as being nurture. MBTI, or cognitive functions, are nature, in my opinion. You clearly did not read the blog which was referred to because I explained all of it there & no one else was confused. Yes, there are correlations. Certain MBTI types will be more likely to become certain enneagram types due to how they perceive and evaluate the wounding experience. Many of the woundings for each type sound quite similar, it's a matter of how the wounding is taken by the wounded. I gave an example in my blog of my ESFP sister & myself which illustrates that.

Saying "does no compute" over & over & over does not compute - it's like saying "I just don't like it". It doesn't compute to YOU. You're otherwise offering no valid criticism other than showing you just don't get it. I'm not interested in discussing this with you further, because you're clearly not grasping it. Not to mention, it's not the purpose of the thread.
 

Salomé

meh
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Enneagram is about emotional motivations, which I see as being nurture. MBTI, or cognitive functions, are nature, in my opinion. You clearly did not read the blog which was referred to because I explained all of it there & no one else was confused. Yes, there are correlations. Certain MBTI types will be more likely to become certain enneagram types due to how they perceive and evaluate the wounding experience. Many of the woundings for each type sound quite similar, it's a matter of how the wounding is taken by the wounded. I gave an example in my blog of my ESFP sister & myself which illustrates that.

Saying "does no compute" over & over & over does not compute - it's like saying "I just don't like it". It doesn't compute to YOU. You're otherwise offering no valid criticism other than showing you just don't get it. I'm not interested in discussing this with you further, because you're clearly not grasping it. Not to mention, it's not the purpose of the thread.
I get it. I just don't agree with it. It's illogical. And I explained why. I could explain in more detail but you seem pretty entrenched.
Liking has nothing to do with it.
 

You

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2010
Messages
2,124
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entp
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7w8
Explain it to me. I don't have too many traitd of a female who was abandoned.
 

Wild horses

New member
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
1,916
MBTI Type
ENFP
I never would have assumed that it would have an impact..... Well obviously I know that it would have an impact on your life but not on your make up... who you are... but then I suppose we would have to postulate on whether or not personality is nature or nurture.... However, reading some of this thread is making me wonder at some of the 'coincidences' very interesting...
 
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