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  1. #41
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Work on your reading comprehension & try again.
    That's the point.
    Or maybe you need to work on your general comprehension. You said "enneagram is nurture", then '2 people with the same nurture can end up different E-types'.
    Does not compute.

    You also said MBTI is nature, whilst E is nurture. But the attributes measured are too similar and the correlations between types too strong for there not to be a common cause. Again: does not compute.

    If the "introversion" of Jung et al is biologically (rather than environmentally) determined, then it's also likely that the "withdrawal" of E-types is. Think about it.
    I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Daddy issues usually show up in sexuality or most commonly.
    For some types.. but not across the board (i.e., not for Fives, probably).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay
    I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.
    Agreed.

    That seems to be supported both theoretically AND statistically.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Or maybe you need to work on your general comprehension. You said "enneagram is nurture", then '2 people with the same nurture can end up different E-types'.
    Does not compute.

    You also said MBTI is nature, whilst E is nurture. But the attributes measured are too similar and the correlations between types too strong for there not to be a common cause. Again: does not compute.
    Her posts make sense to me. It sounds like you're defining 'nurture' purely as 'environment' (which...yeah, that's what it normally means) while OrangeAppled is defining it as what one experiences, which is dependent on both your environment and your inborn temperament. So she's drawing a distinction between 'set at birth' (preferred cognitive functions) and 'arising as a result of life experiences' (enneagram motivations).

    So, to use your example earlier, even if someone is set at birth to be overwhelmed by ordinary emotional stimulation, the type 5 motivations to withdraw and detach may still develop as a result of experiencing that sense of overwhelm, that feeling of intrusion, rather than being present all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.
    True. I believe there are limits to what can happen with each temperament. Perhaps there is more possibility for variation than it seems though, if we consider the effect of culture. For example, "normal affection" can vary across culture and time periods, so maybe there are places where more reserved, easily stimulated children are less likely to become fives. Or, there might also be cultures in which introverted children have an easier time becoming eights.

  4. #44
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    Her posts make sense to me. It sounds like you're defining 'nurture' purely as 'environment' (which...yeah, that's what it normally means) while OrangeAppled is defining it as what one experiences, which is dependent on both your environment and your inborn temperament. So she's drawing a distinction between 'set at birth' (preferred cognitive functions) and 'arising as a result of life experiences' (enneagram motivations).
    Not to be pedantic, but if people are going to use terms other than in the accepted sense, they need to supply revised definitions, or use a more appropriate word, not turn around and ignorantly suggest that someone else's reading comprehension is at fault, when it's really their failure to define their terms that may be creating misunderstanding.

    But in fact, she is using the term in the traditionally accepted sense - hence the use of the expression "nature vs nurture" which implies mutual exclusivity.

    Whereas, in reality it is more like nature via nurture - gene expression is very much influenced by environment. But there are limits to the effects of environment.

    So, to use your example earlier, even if someone is set at birth to be overwhelmed by ordinary emotional stimulation, the type 5 motivations to withdraw and detach may still develop as a result of experiencing that sense of overwhelm, that feeling of intrusion, rather than being present all along.
    I don't see that as being a useful distinction. The potential is present all along. That's all Nature means. Genes encode potential. They almost always have to activated in some way by the environment.
    I see this stuff in terms of thresholds. If a person's nervous system is so calibrated that exposure to a normal amount of stimulation is experienced as overwhelming - that is Nature, pure and simple. Sure, maybe if they spent their whole life in a flotation tank, they'd never be overwhelmed - but it's not useful to construct unrealistic scenarios like that.
    What is the root cause of this over-sensitivity? Is it environmental (early trauma) or genetic (innate (in)tolerance)? The former is Nurture, the latter is Nature (reinforced by Nurture).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #45
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Or maybe you need to work on your general comprehension. You said "enneagram is nurture", then '2 people with the same nurture can end up different E-types'.
    Does not compute.

    You also said MBTI is nature, whilst E is nurture. But the attributes measured are too similar and the correlations between types too strong for there not to be a common cause. Again: does not compute.

    If the "introversion" of Jung et al is biologically (rather than environmentally) determined, then it's also likely that the "withdrawal" of E-types is. Think about it.
    I think there is more scope within the Enneagram for the influence of nurture, as I mentioned earlier, whether an INTP becomes 5 or 9 is more than likely influenced by early environment, but the odds of an INTP being a 3 or an 8 are pretty slim. That is to say, you can't make a 3 without the right raw material to work with: Nature.
    Enneagram is about emotional motivations, which I see as being nurture. MBTI, or cognitive functions, are nature, in my opinion. You clearly did not read the blog which was referred to because I explained all of it there & no one else was confused. Yes, there are correlations. Certain MBTI types will be more likely to become certain enneagram types due to how they perceive and evaluate the wounding experience. Many of the woundings for each type sound quite similar, it's a matter of how the wounding is taken by the wounded. I gave an example in my blog of my ESFP sister & myself which illustrates that.

    Saying "does no compute" over & over & over does not compute - it's like saying "I just don't like it". It doesn't compute to YOU. You're otherwise offering no valid criticism other than showing you just don't get it. I'm not interested in discussing this with you further, because you're clearly not grasping it. Not to mention, it's not the purpose of the thread.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  6. #46
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Enneagram is about emotional motivations, which I see as being nurture. MBTI, or cognitive functions, are nature, in my opinion. You clearly did not read the blog which was referred to because I explained all of it there & no one else was confused. Yes, there are correlations. Certain MBTI types will be more likely to become certain enneagram types due to how they perceive and evaluate the wounding experience. Many of the woundings for each type sound quite similar, it's a matter of how the wounding is taken by the wounded. I gave an example in my blog of my ESFP sister & myself which illustrates that.

    Saying "does no compute" over & over & over does not compute - it's like saying "I just don't like it". It doesn't compute to YOU. You're otherwise offering no valid criticism other than showing you just don't get it. I'm not interested in discussing this with you further, because you're clearly not grasping it. Not to mention, it's not the purpose of the thread.
    I get it. I just don't agree with it. It's illogical. And I explained why. I could explain in more detail but you seem pretty entrenched.
    Liking has nothing to do with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #47
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Explain it to me. I don't have too many traitd of a female who was abandoned.
    Oh, its
    You
    ....

  8. #48
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    I never would have assumed that it would have an impact..... Well obviously I know that it would have an impact on your life but not on your make up... who you are... but then I suppose we would have to postulate on whether or not personality is nature or nurture.... However, reading some of this thread is making me wonder at some of the 'coincidences' very interesting...
    ... couldn't drag me away

    eljko Ranatovic: argus
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