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  1. #21
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    Like others have already mentioned, it would be dependent on a lot of variables, such as the age, relationship and circumstances at the time of abandonment. If her prior experiences with her father figure were unsavory or minimal, I can understand how she(depending on the particular individual) would either become over dependent or the extreme opposite with the men in her life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angelhair45 View Post
    It might be easier if I were asked questions.

    Long term effects. I will never be the person who thinks, "that will never happen to me". I know it can happen to me, or you or you. I realized life is not certain.

    I think, if I had had a solid support system when he died I would have fared much better. Sadly I was an extrovert who could barely figure out what to wear without talking about it, yet I had no one to talk with about such a traumatic event. I had to introvert to deal with it, and that is what made me feel alone and isolated for many years...

    Really it affected me in a lot of ways, I'm not sure where to start, but I'm an open book, so ask away.
    I wanted to expand a little further on spamtar's questions for you and ask you a few more specific ones.

    1. How old were you when he died? (As someone else said earlier, differences in age of when loss/abandoment occurred makes a huge difference in the effect it has on a child)
    2. How do you think this effected your relationship with men - if that is your orientation (as spamtar also asked)? Did you find that you were more timid in approaching men as the absence of a male figure in your life made you less comfortable with them? Or were you able to find a male presence that, to a certain extent, replaced your father's? I could imagine in either case of abandonment or loss, a stronger sense of attachment to your S.O. would occur, but is this true? What kind of general patterns did you see, not necessarily in your choice of men, but in how you related to them?

    I'm interested in how losing a father at a young age can affect a young girl as I have some personal interest in the topic. I have some ideas but I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks again for your willingness to share - I think this will help me a lot.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InTheFlesh View Post
    I thought it was known that when a daughter is abandoned by her father it is more likely that she will end up as an Enneagram type 4. What I've found is that many 4's have an extreme fear of abandonment, rooted from their father or mother emotionally or physically abandoning them when they were young.
    I don't really relate to the other stuff in the post (especially the attention seeking part - ick, no), but this rings a bell. I definitely see losing vs being abandoned having different effects also, as one is usually more of a choice on the part of the parent.

    While I was not technically abandoned, my dad left the family unit when I was 2 and I did not see him a lot growing up. My mother said after he left I expressed a lot of fear that she would leave me also. I have a tendency to withdraw from people and avoid serious relationships to avoid rejection. I know "fear of rejection" is sort of cliche, but it has definitely been a negative force in my mind. I tend to have some feelings of shame regarding what I see as my true self (and so it's kept extremely guarded), not being good enough, and needing to assert a unique identity which is associated with 4s and which I can connect to my dad's departure.

    In my blog here, I wrote about the enneagram 4, woundings that lead to the 4 motivations, and how I feel my relationship with my parents (ie. dad leaving at a young age) affected my personality, if anyone is interested in the details (I also briefly discuss 5s, 7s, and 6s a little, as I also mention my sister):
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ypical-me.html
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  4. #24
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't really relate to the other stuff in the post (especially the attention seeking part - ick, no), but this rings a bell. I definitely see losing vs being abandoned having different effects also, as one is usually more of a choice on the part of the parent.


    While I was not technically abandoned, my dad left the family unit when I was 2 and I did not see him a lot growing up. My mother said after he left I expressed a lot of fear that she would leave me also. I have a tendency to withdraw from people and avoid serious relationships to avoid rejection. I know "fear of rejection" is sort of cliche, but it has definitely been a negative force in my mind. I tend to have some feelings of shame regarding what I see as my true self (and so it's kept extremely guarded), not being good enough, and needing to assert a unique identity which is associated with 4s and which I can connect to my dad's departure.
    I can relate to this, though my beginning's a bit different from yours, OA. My father left me & my mom before I was born. He panicked after my mother told him she was pregnant, figured she was trying to "trap" him into a long-term relationship (she wasn't), and took off, with a very yellow belly indeed. No surprise that the guy's never paid child support (and also hasn't gone to big boy jail for not paying), has taken no kind of responsibility for me, has never gotten in contact with me or my mother to try and rectify his mistake, and has ultimately wormed his way out of every obligation (legal, financial, emotional, etc.) he owed me. I should be pissed! I should be angry, and upset, and very loud about how disgusted I am to know I've come from the kind of weak and spineless person who doesn't have the decency to care about anyone else but himself, but I'm not. I just don't have the energy to expend on someone whose never cared enough to expend any on me, just don't.

    Luckily, throughout my life, I've had a number of positive "father figures": uncles, family friends, older male cousins, my grandfather, etc; and, though they've all been very solid examples of how to be good people/parents/fathers/men, that first and initial rejection for me still stings. As you've said, OA, it sounds cliche, but I really am terrified of rejection! And whatever form of rejection I receive now just confirms whatever inadequate feelings I've already been harboring towards myself, no matter how much I've tried suppressing them. In the past I've been very guarded in relationships and friendships and whenever I feel someone getting too close I withdraw. The irony, though, is I have to risk vulnerability and the prospect of revealing parts of myself with people before I can even begin to get what I want most (understanding). Even today, any situation that involves being open and having to come out of my comfort zone is very difficult for me to cope with, and if the situation happens to peak my anxiety level and overwhelm me past a certain point it can actually reduce me to tears. I think those are the most pronounced ways being rejected and abandoned by my father has affected me.

    This really isn't something I like talking about and am very reluctant to even lay it out here, but I thought since this forum's helped me a lot towards much of my own self-discovery that I'd share a rather personal part of myself to aid in whatever... case study this turns out to be. I hope it helped some.


    From your blog, OA, what resonated most with me was how type 4s feel devalued & unworthy as a result of a parent, or both, being absent very early in their lives (or, in my case, completely abandoning them & doing everything possible to be relieved of their parental rights to them) as well as how type 5s feel smothered emotionally by one parent (here, the mother) and learn to take refuge inside the safety of their own minds.

    Loved your explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    An interesting part of the book is how it discusses the emotional reasons behind a type developing the way it does. My understanding of how this works for a 4 is that a person becomes a 4 as a result of feeling rejected/abandoned by a parent, or both parents. The rejection/abandonment may be literal or simply one which is felt because a parent is distant, high/drunk, or unloving to the child. Basically, the child feels devalued.

    The child deals with this wounding by striving to create a unique identity to explains the events: "my parent did not reject me because I am bad, but rather, my parent could not understand me because I am so unique". This unique identity that 4s strive for is a coping mechanism and a defense. When their unique identity is threatened, they may feel worthless, because if they are not unique, then they are simply flawed and that is why they were rejected. They need to feel "special" to have the value the parent took away. Of course, this is no conscious conclusion, but a deep, raw feeling that arises and motivates.
    The 5 becomes a 5 often because a parent "smothered" the child, usually the mother. The child felt the parent intruded on their privacy, personal space, and tries to inhibit the child from becoming a separate individual from the parent. Or, the parent's emotions may have overwhelmed the child, also having a smothering effect. The child then retreats into his head, as a way to find escape from the parent, and develops a haven that the parent cannot intrude into.

    The 5 develops an identity of being a total individual, detached from others and the external world, and wary of the burdens emotions can bring. Hence, the type 5 becoming a cerebral person, more interested in analyzing information than connecting to people, detaching from emotions which threaten his calm mental state, and striving to maintain independence at the cost of relationships. When the 5 is threatened with passionate feeling or a damper on his independence, then he begins to feel powerless, at the mercy of the frustrated feelings his parent's wounding inspired.

  5. #25
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    ^I think maybe you're both putting a type 4 spin on it.
    Not everyone with a smothering mother becomes type 5. Not everyone abandoned by a parent becomes type 4.

    Barring abuse or severe neglect, I think attachment patterns are broadly shaped by nature rather than nurture. E.g. Type 5 is said to be ambivalent to both parents. Well, we're pretty much ambivalent towards everything so no great surprises here. Does the type 5 "retreat" because the mother's emotions are "overwhelming" or does the type 5 find even normal emotional stimulation overwhelming? No real way of knowing which is egg and which is chicken...
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post

    If you're interested in theory buy the Riso-Hudson Enneagram book.
    Browsed through that a little online. Heavy stuff.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    ^I think maybe you're both putting a type 4 spin on it.
    Not everyone with a smothering mother becomes type 5. Not everyone abandoned by a parent becomes type 4.

    Barring abuse or severe neglect, I think attachment patterns are broadly shaped by nature rather than nurture. E.g. Type 5 is said to be ambivalent to both parents. Well, we're pretty much ambivalent towards everything so no great surprises here. Does the type 5 "retreat" because the mother's emotions are "overwhelming" or does the type 5 find even normal emotional stimulation overwhelming? No real way of knowing which is egg and which is chicken...
    I think it's bolded. Every type is sensitive towards something different, like E5 on stimulation. Best way to know is looking at siblings, e5 will have totally different complaints about parents than e3 or e7 for example.
    its all about how the child perceives his parents.

  8. #28
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    Daddy issues usually show up in sexuality or most commonly.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    I've always had my own preconceived ideas of what abandonment is and assumed i fit that category however spending significant time researching the subject .. I'll admit i did have issues in the past regarding my father but last year we actually talked like father/daughter for the first time and found out he did love me but showed it in a way so he couldn't get hurt. That was all i needed from him.

    With my ex husband i thought i had the same issues but again realise now, it wasn't abandonment, it was trust issues. He cut me high and dry and was so absorbed in his own emotions, he forgot about me. His shrink thinks i have abandonment issues with my father without having ever met me. Shit like that hurts ..

    I don't think i have abandonment issues as they have been resolved, my issues is those who say they love me .. then behave in a way that contradicts this thus i have trust issues but i refuse to allow this behaviour continue .. I will not tar every man with the same brush.

    If the below is true .. I don't mind dealing with life alone, that's not the issue .. I don't like being fucked around and not having closure.
    Hearn describes fear of abandonment as a psychological disorder where the individual suffering from this illness cannot control the fear that he or she feels when faced with the idea of having to cope with life and its difficulties alone.

    This thread has been incredibly beneficial in so many different ways
    Thanks.
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  10. #30
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    ^I think maybe you're both putting a type 4 spin on it.
    Not everyone with a smothering mother becomes type 5. Not everyone abandoned by a parent becomes type 4.
    Well, right, but that's not what I was implying in the first place. Just that as a result of the kind of love and attachment I experienced and witnessed as a child I came to this end. Someone else could have grown up in an identical environment to one I grew up in and turned out another type - I realize that.

    Barring abuse or severe neglect, I think attachment patterns are broadly shaped by nature rather than nurture. E.g. Type 5 is said to be ambivalent to both parents. Well, we're pretty much ambivalent towards everything so no great surprises here. Does the type 5 "retreat" because the mother's emotions are "overwhelming" or does the type 5 find even normal emotional stimulation overwhelming? No real way of knowing which is egg and which is chicken...
    Depends on the 5. Maybe the wings and subtypes play a role here?

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