Posturing and Machismo

[ygolo]

Inspired by Mempy's thread on "Damsels", I started this thread.

The same visceral dislike that Mempy seemed to have towards damsels, I have of machismo and posturing.

By Posturing, I more specifically mean:

1. To assume an exaggerated or unnatural pose or mental attitude; attitudinize.

Not sure what questions I have about this, so feel free to comment about whatever tangent pops into your minds.

I'll give some background on why I have such visceral, negative feelings towards machismo.

I associate being "macho" with acting like a drug-dealing kid.

I went to middle school and high school during the nineties. To me, it seemed like drug and gang violence among kids was at its peek during these times (at least it seemed a lot less prevalent in the news since then). The drug-dealing kids in particular went about school posturing, openly wearing their beepers and cell-phones (at the time only drug-dealing kids had them). They would pick fights regularly. Several kids were hospitalized. One was sent to ICU. As far as I know, none were killed. I also noticed, at the time, the closer you acted like these kids the more "cool" you were. They were predominantly boys (no girls I knew of dealt drugs, though there were users). You were seen as somehow more "manly" if were part of some gang. I stayed as far away from this scene as possible. I didn't even want to know the gang names. But it was clear, in school, that there were people wearing similar colors all the time and hung out together. (I was glad to be pulled out of this environment to a "special" high-school. Very little of this original element was left inside my high-school.)
Since this time, I have always associated machismo and posturing with this atmosphere. I generally don't have strong political opinions, but every-time I see the "macho swagger," even in the likes of George W. Bush, I have a visceral urge to kick the person in the face. I realize, in the 10 years since, the gang-banger "style" has become mainstream. My family has since moved to much more privileged neighborhood. I still get the same visceral urge when I see my brother dressing in a similar style or hear him using similar verbiage. I know him to be a good kid, but I wonder if he realizes what gangs actually do/did.

I'll also give some starter questions:
1) Do you feel pressure to act macho, or overtly masculine?
2) Are you attracted/repulsed by a macho man?

Any comments, really.

Just wanted to start a discussion going. I believe I have exposed one of my deepest biases. I can't say it is even a bit rational. But there it is.

 

[SillySapienne]

I am attracted to quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner.

I am absolutely repelled by loud and obnoxious "macho type" guys who are so very obviously trying to compensate for their deeply rooted insecurities.

 

[alcea rosea]

I am attracted to quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner.

Well said. I am too.

 

[Xander]

I work with macho types. I want compensation!!!

Oddly enough I got stick for "trying to be cool" but most often it was because I wasn't having anything o do with the cool types or what they considered the in thing. Most confusing.

The macho types at our school were more like your stereotypical football lads (minus the ultra violence version now romanticised). Now I work with a load of rugby guys, racists, ex"martial artists" (read 'fat old guys who used to be handy and are now just impotent and irritable as hell') and other such wannabes.

Mind you though personally I find the whole posturing of macho types to be a whole lot easier to deal with than the intellectual posturing that many practice. How do you point out the flaw in their logic when they are convinced their logic is perfect?

 

[swordpath]

I'm in the Marines... Need I say more?

 

[white]

If by macho you mean a guy who takes care of his physique via regular exercise, outdoorsy stuff, a nice tan, then yes, I could find that person physically attractive: Someone who's out doing things is less likely to be depressed, so that's a good foil for me - I sometimes spend too long in thoughts and rarely take action. So someone who's more action-oriented would give me the kick I sometimes need.

Macho guys can be easier to understand too. And on a positive note, they will look out for you / take care of you.

But if the personality is off-putting (abrasive, abusive, swaggering as you put it), then no matter how attractive the face/body is, any physical attraction will die quickly. But having said that, there're also non-macho guys who could have turn-off personalities too.

So yeps... there's a difference between masculinity and swagger. If by macho you mean the former, then yes, I'm attracted to good, clean, strong guys.

 

[CzeCze]

Hmm...do I fine 'masculinity' attractive? We could split hairs and try to confine and define what constitutes 'masculinity' but uh, yeah for now I will say a little goes a long way and yes certain aspects of it are attractive, even very attractive. And 'masculinity' for me can be exhibited by any gender or sex.

Cockiness is also attractive me, which is generally associated with 'masculinity'. Or rather, I find manly cockiness both amusing and attractive. And real confidence. Which is considered a part of the 'masculine' pacakage.

But machismo?

Machismo is 'masculinity' in the extreme. Almost a caricature. And I like my cartoons to remain on the flat screen.

Dear lord, I have encountered real machismo before. Guys who publicly state how 'dominant' they are and alpha-dog.



Very off-putting. Not only do they come across as insecure and an asshole, but frankly, if you really are that awesome, you don't need to publicly state and assert that fact to everyone around you every 10 minutes. I'm going to borrow Edahn's catch phrase here: BOOOORRRRIIIINNNG.

Confidence is knowing something, machismo is needing to prove it.

And Xander, where do you work?

 

[ygolo]

CaptainChick, Alcearos, aelan, CzeCze:
It seems like you are saying there is a threshold. A little bit is good, a lot is bad. That's a tough game to play.

Perhaps there is a difference in kind? Masculinity vs. machismo?

Maybe that is what you are saying. But it still reads like a difference in degree instead of a degree in kind.

True?

Do you see machismo as masculinity + insecurity, with the insecurity as being off-putting? I know these things are hard to verbalize.

For me, as a guy, its something visceral. I can't put my finger on it. I can only call it "swagger." When I see it, I have a strong urge to knock the swagger out of the person (I don't do it, of course).

Mind you though personally I find the whole posturing of macho types to be a whole lot easier to deal with than the intellectual posturing that many practice. How do you point out the flaw in their logic when they are convinced their logic is perfect?

I have heard a lot about intellectual posturing, from a lot of people. But I encounter it in real life either very infrequently or everywhere depending on the interpretation.

In general, I think people act on the belief that their reasoning is sound. They are generally hard to convince of something new (religion, politics, personal opinions, etc.). I've met few people who believe they have perfect reasoning abilities, but plenty who believe they have better reasoning abilities than me (I don't believe myself to be that bad).

I'm in the Marines... Need I say more?

Probably. I've known people in the military. I haven't seen much of the swagger in the ones I've met.

They usually feel little need to "prove themselves," as mentioned above.

Another thought though...When young, maybe a little bit of a "need to prove oneself" can be a motivating factor, however. Good, bad? What do you think?

 

[nightning]

Not sure what questions I have about this, so feel free to comment about whatever tangent pops into your minds.

I'll give some background on why I have such visceral, negative feelings towards machismo.

I associate being "macho" with acting like a drug-dealing kid.


I'll also give some starter questions:
1) Do you feel pressure to act macho, or overtly masculine?
2) Are you attracted/repulsed by a macho man?

I dislike machismo or posturing for the sake of posturing (aka purposeless posturing). *chuckles* Being a female, I obviously don't act that way.

Why do I dislike it? It's fake! Who you are as a person will show through no matter what you do. Your underlying self confidence and competence will show through your actions... how you respond to given situations. Acting macho-like is just bad taste in my opinion. Emphasis on the word "acting". For that's all machismo is... an act.

Is machismo masculinity + insecurity?
I think of it as an act... a possible explanation of the act would be insecurity. Insecurity with the concept of self that lead to an over exaggeration of what he perceived masculinity should be (false notions)... or just the plain dumb option of monkey see monkey do from bad examples. -_-;; In the second case, it could have very little to do with insecurity and more to do with confusion in self role, or the proper way one should behave in society.

 

[alcea rosea]

Perhaps there is a difference in kind? Masculinity vs. machismo?

Masculinity: yes, Yes, YES!
Machismo: NO, NO, NO!

As CaptainChick said: quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner. They can be (and should be in my opinion) masculine! They are MEN without underlining it.

 

[ygolo]

Masculinity: yes, Yes, YES!
Machismo: NO, NO, NO!

As CaptainChick said: quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner. They can be (and should be in my opinion) masculine! They are MEN without underlining it.

Sorry, I've caught the latest bug floating around, so I may not be completely coherent.

What I was asking is if it is a difference in degree, or a difference in kind?

By this, I mean, is machismo just masculinity*<a very large number> or is it something different entirely.

I realize that masculinity is some thing you like, while machismo is something you dislike.

I was trying to find the boundary.

So far we've identified insecurity, and "acting" as two separating factors.

Still, I have yet to meet any person who had no insecurities, or any person who wasn't "acting" to some extent to get along.

So these seem like differences in degree as well.

Perhaps, a more basic question is needed: What is it that people find masculine? (I realize this has been addressed to some extent)

In the U.S. it is different for urban and rural areas, it seems like. In both areas, there is an element of self-sufficiency (which I like), as well as "I can take any pain" mentality (which I dislike). I was not born in the U.S. so my cultural images are a bit crossed.

Again, any further thoughts are appreciated.
I am in kind of a rambling mode myself.

 

[alcea rosea]

I would say macho men run around yelling they are MEN. They brag around about their manhood, masculinity etc.
(And they'll proabably have low self-esteem because they have a need to brag about those things )

 

[SillySapienne]

Masculinity: yes, Yes, YES!
Machismo: NO, NO, NO!

As CaptainChick said: quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner. They can be (and should be in my opinion) masculine! They are MEN without underlining it.

...And that's what makes them so damn sexy!!!!!!

 

[swordpath]

Probably. I've known people in the military. I haven't seen much of the swagger in the ones I've met.

They usually feel little need to "prove themselves," as mentioned above.

Another thought though...When young, maybe a little bit of a "need to prove oneself" can be a motivating factor, however. Good, bad? What do you think?

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of solid people in the Marines that don't fit the machismo category. I'm not this way (although I won't say that as a guy, I don't have insecurities and suffer from pressures to be the stereotypical type-A kind of guy, from time to time). It's just that any occupation where part of your job (at least the training) is to kill, you're gonna have the meat heads that perfectly fit the machismo stereotype. I see it plenty, but it's not overwhelmingly prevalent.

Make sense?

 

[ygolo]

I would say macho men run around yelling they are MEN. They brag around about their manhood, masculinity etc.
(And they'll proabably have low self-esteem because they have a need to brag about those things )

...And that's what makes them so damn sexy!!!!!!

Aren't most men, clearly men without the need to show that they are? From what you two are saying, it seems like machismo would be a rare thing. That hasn't been my experience.

In the business sphere in particular, a macho boss will often refer to sports analogies to try extract unrealistic amounts of work for unrealistic deadlines, just so he can prove himself to his superiors.

Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of solid people in the Marines that don't fit the machismo category. I'm not this way (although I won't say that as a guy, I don't have insecurities and suffer from pressures to be the stereotypical type-A kind of guy, from time to time). It's just that any occupation where part of your job (at least the training) is to kill, you're gonna have the meat heads that perfectly fit the machismo stereotype. I see it plenty, but it's not overwhelmingly prevalent.

Make sense?

I think so. Hopefully, they wise up after seeing combat. Do they?

 

[Metamorphosis]

You need to draw a distinction between people who are this way and people who act like this. I would also advise some introspection into why exactly you feel so angry at these people.

In your words, I know multiple "drug-dealing kids" and people like George Bush (I am from Texas), and I've walked into a class before and had someone tell me, "Don't swagger when you walk in here." Have you ever talked to any of these people? Or are you just frustrated that people perceive them as more manly than other types of guys? Or are you made becuase some people fake it?

Lumping together all of these people, is like me saying..."Well...I hate it when people play video games because it's so nerdy."

If you are talking about guys that bully other guys...that is one thing. But it seems like you are talking about guys who walk and talk a certain way.

 

[swordpath]

I think so. Hopefully, they wise up after seeing combat. Do they?

Can't really speak for anyone else. I wouldn't say so though.

 

[ygolo]

You need to draw a distinction between people who are this way and people who act like this. I would also advise some introspection into why exactly you feel so angry at these people.

Well, I have. I can't say it is at all rational. If you mean to draw a distinction between people who do harm, like drug dealers, and people who swagger. I know that they are different rationally.

In your words, I know multiple "drug-dealing kids" and people like George Bush (I am from Texas), and I've walked into a class before and had someone tell me, "Don't swagger when you walk in here." Have you ever talked to any of these people? Or are you just frustrated that people perceive them as more manly than other types of guys? Or are you made becuase some people fake it?

Lumping together all of these people, is like me saying..."Well...I hate it when people play video games because it's so nerdy."

It really is like the last statement. I don't believe it makes any sense. A lot of things are lumped together.

I have talked to people who draw that same visceral response from me (one is my brother). I generally like most people, and I would have to be in a rather strange state of mind, for this particular urge to reach the surface. But I know it is there.

Am I frustrated that people perceive swaggering individuals as more manly? Yes. Again, it makes little sense to me as to why I am frustrated.

I also don't like that people fake it.

For the record, I chose Bush as an example to show how irrational the response is (and I know other people have a similar irrational response).

If we want to push the state based stereo-types, I have seen a California type swagger and a New York type sagger, and both are as annoying to me as the Texan swagger of Bush.

As an other absurd example, although I generally like Rodney Dangerfield's characters and like his comedy. I get the same visceral urge towards him.

I know it to be a weird bias. But it is one I have. I think it is better to know about it than not.

 

[SillySapienne]

I am biased in that I have never really been attracted to charismatic, "look at me", ubercocky guys.

I like, and am attracted to guys who are comfortable in their skin, and who don't feel the constant need to dominate a crowd, or be the center of attention. But then again, I can only speak for myself, and I admittedly have always been attracted to introverts.

Regardless, the understated, contemplative, confident, masculine guys that I speak of, are definitely in the extreme minority, and not the majority.

 

[ygolo]

I am biased in that I have never really been attracted to charismatic, "look at me", ubercocky guys.

I like, and am attracted to guys who are comfortable in their skin, and who don't feel the constant need to dominate a crowd, or be the center of attention. But then again, I can only speak for myself, and I admittedly have always been attracted to introverts.

Regardless, the understated, contemplative, confident, masculine guys that I speak of, are definitely in the extreme minority, and not the majority.

That brings up a point about confidence, cockiness, etc.

For me confidence is proportional to the relative perceived experience I has in a particular context.

If I perceive that I don't have a lot of experience in a particular context, I am not confident.

If I perceive that I have more experience with something than I actually do, the I am overconfident.

Cockiness, seems like something else entirely. It reminds me of "peacocking," I suppose "showing off" with the aim to impress/intimidate.

This has actually been helpful for me. Because, trying to "impress" anyone is something I find annoying also. Unfortunately, it is a necessary part of daily life. Often times, there IS a need to impress to be given the freedoms I am seeking.

Perhaps, my visceral dislike of machismo, is connected to my annoyance at needing to "impress" people.

Anyway, this thread wasn't intended at self-therapy.

Feel free to ramble on yourselves.

[/rambling]