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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    IRL I see a lot more swagger. And very little clarity. Sometimes guys are brutally honest. But they enjoy the brutality more than the honesty. That takes away the honesty somewhat.

    But I was pointing out Gray's post simply as an example since it was there.

    FWIW, I think many guys nowadays are confused (same with girls) about masculinity, feminity. What makes a man.
    Yes. I am not only confused because of changing norms. But also because I am a foreigner.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Even Jung's work on the Animus/Anima seems like speculative theories.
    Agreed. Even Myers-Briggs was too speculative for my tastes. There isn't anything inherently wrong with speculation. It just makes my head spin after a while (It could simply be my cold in this instance, but I've noted it in general).

    Feel free to share further. I find it interesting, and I am sure others will too.

    I was just saying that integrating it into my own framework of knowledge, is something rather hard for me to do at this point.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #52
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I'll also give some starter questions:
    1) Do you feel pressure to act macho, or overtly masculine?
    Sometimes. More so in these situations:
    1. Guys around me are insecure and lacking self-awareness.
    2. Guys around me are more "accomplished" career-wise or spiritually or who appear to be intellectual.
    3. First dates, pickup scenes, bars.

    It fades once I say "fuck it, I'm going to dork out regardless of how I'm received."

    2) Are you attracted/repulsed by a macho man?
    I'm a straight guy, but I get somewhat uncomfortable. People who don't know how to be silly, who take life all too seriously, make me uneasy. They're usually also very cynical and hypercritical, which means they're probably judging you. They foster self-consciousness which is anathema to peace of mind and happiness. I usually try to avoid them, then make an effort to loosen them up with some humor. If I can't get into the groove, I usually take off (physically, mentally).

  3. #53
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    You've got 50 percent of people that are above the mean in terms of masculinity, and 50 percent of people that are below it. There isn't much to say about this phenomenon given that it can be thought about as being similar to every other perceived quality of human beings - some will have more of it, others less.

    Machismo is different, and in my opinion the two distributions don't overlap significantly, if we go about with the definition of machismo you have given. Most people at the highest end of the masculinity distribution tend to be rather calm and somewhat passive, actually. After all, when you have nothing to fear, you don't need to go around making sure things will follow a certain path.

  4. #54
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Yes. I am not only confused because of changing norms. But also because I am a foreigner.
    It's also local. I'd split it into three major categories - Sex Roles, Physical dimorphism and behavioural differences.

    You'll find a lot more "tough rugged" in tough rugged areas (protector, strong), just as you'll see more provider roles in places like NY (money, power). That isn't to say that you don't get a crossover (tough NY guys abound, just as money talks in more rugged areas), but the social identity differs significantly. You get a lot more NYers talking about the deals they made (posturing) than tough and rugged.

    Likewise, local preferences play a part - for example, having a suntan use to mean money, while having a suntan now means almost the opposite. The guy who is stronger (rather than fit) doesn't fit into the "executive white collar" stuff as much anymore.

    And of course, behavioural differences are amplified locally. Some cultures/sub cultures emphasise self reliance, others responsibility, duty and so forth.


    Macho behaviour tends to be driven by insecurity over fitting into a role and that bothers me some, although I don't really care overall. But a lot of this has to do with acceptance in a group, fitting into a group/role and self identity... it doesn't have to come with male/female dynamics, it's just an easy one to get caught into. One reason why it is present, however, is because of mate selection. In that sense, a lot of it is evolutionary - blind, that is. Certain traits find mates with this posturing - it works on certain scales/other traits, and so it continues. We just act it out.

  5. #55
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Agreed. Even Myers-Briggs was too speculative for my tastes. There isn't anything inherently wrong with speculation. It just makes my head spin after a while (It could simply be my cold in this instance, but I've noted it in general).

    Feel free to share further. I find it interesting, and I am sure others will too.

    I was just saying that integrating it into my own framework of knowledge, is something rather hard for me to do at this point.
    Well, I certainly never intended to make anyone feel unsettled or intended that anyone need feel they must integrate any of my ramblings into their own frameworks. I run on Fi Ne, speculation is just about as natural as breathing for me.

    I was not in a any way supporting tarot cards as fortune telling devices, only meant that the creators of such cards clearly drew upon the common archetypes when they created them.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    It fades once I say "fuck it, I'm going to dork out regardless of how I'm received."
    I like this quote. I may steal it.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I was not in a any way supporting tarot cards as fortune telling devices, only meant that the creators of such cards clearly drew upon the common archetypes when they created them.
    I feel a lot more confortable now. That would be interesting.

    Excelent. *Monty Burns fingers*

    We now have a couple of people taking up the evolutionary viewpoint (FineLine, pt), FDG saying that extreme masculinity actually leads to calm, not agressiveness, and heart with some symbolism for good measure.

    Excelent. *Monty Burns fingers*

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #57
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    They're usually also very cynical and hypercritical, which means they're probably judging you.
    Just so you know, we serious types detest this stereotype.

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