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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I think that swaggering is mostly about pecking order. If a millionaire is in the company of middle-class guys, he's going to swagger a bit and show off his power suit and his fancy car. But if that same millionaire goes and joins a group of billionaires, he's going to dial back his swagger quite a bit (unless he wants to push an image of being the brash young up-and-comer).
    I don't believe in pecking orders. Most people, find that I never lead, follow, or get out of the way. I find their frustration with me in this regard quite amusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    yeah, it's just a phrase... you're over thinking things again
    You're not going to convince me of that. Anything can be analyzed. It is what I do. Some people like to ski, some people like to play cards. I like to analyze.

    It is that simple. You are over-analyzing my act of over-thinking. The sky is blue. I like to think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    why not strive to find confidence in the real implications (or lack thereof) of what is true instead of trying to alter it? a man doesn't need to deny himself in order to find complacency. in fact, i dont think that one can find true complacency until he or her faces and deals with the truth.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    FWIW... Grayscale's directness is an example of positive masculinity I'd like to see.
    You say that as if you see little of it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #42
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I don't believe in pecking orders. Most people, find that I never lead, follow, or get out of the way. I find their frustration with me in this regard quite amusing.
    As in you don't believe they exist? If so, I can't even comprehend that.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #43
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post


    I am curious, Heart. Do you have an animus/anima type insight into this area as well?
    This would relate closest to the Emperor card of the Tarot. Archetype of power, energy, action, aggression, drive, libido, competitiveness and masculinity. There are positive manifestations of this and negative ones.

    The Emperor in balance competes with only himself, and allows no distractions on the road to self mastery, but masculine energy can get sidetracked into the following areas. It is when he loses touch with his anima, the female side of himself. :





    “Which of the two do you most value or prefer - the sword of the scabbard?” The young king Arthur answered “naturally, the sword.” Merlin then replied: “you are unwise for the sword once lost or broken cannot serve you any longer, but the same scabbard can hold a dozen swords.”

    We reproduce catastrophe because we ourselves are traumatized – both as a species and individually, beginning at birth. Because we are wounded, we have put up psychic defenses against reality and have become so cut off from direct participation in the multidimensional wilderness in which we are embedded that all we can do is to navigate our way cautiously through a humanly designed day-to-day substitute world of symbols - a world of dollars, minutes, numbers, images and words that are constantly being manipulated to wring the most possible profit from every conceivable circumstance. The body and spirit both rebel

    - David Watson
    The Pathology of Civilization

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    As in you don't believe they exist? If so, I can't even comprehend that.
    No. I believe they exist. I don't believe in supporting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    This would relate closest to the Emperor card of the Tarot. Archetype of power, energy, action, aggression, drive, libido, competitiveness and masculinity. There are positive manifestations of this and negative ones.

    The Emperor in balance competes with only himself, and allows no distractions on the road to self mastery, but masculine energy can get sidetracked into the following areas. It is when he loses touch with his anima, the female side of himself. :
    Interesting heart. This is based on Jung's work? How is it related to the Tarrot?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I don't believe in pecking orders.
    That doesn't meant that they don't exist.

    [Edit: I see you already covered this ground with Metamorphosis.]

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Most people, find that I never lead, follow, or get out of the way. I find their frustration with me in this regard quite amusing.
    You can stand outside the pecking order system. But that's usually the mark of someone who doesn't have much to do with social groups.

    If you want to get comfortable in a group setting, then you honor the conventions of the group and let people know who and what you are. And like it or not, people tend to assign you some kind of place in the pecking order on that basis. And then you accept the treatment that comes with your place in the pecking order, or you challenge the treatment and attempt to move elsewhere on the pecking order.

    If you deliberately buck group conventions and refuse to acknowledge pecking order considerations at all, then you'll always be on the outside. Nothing wrong with that. It's your choice. But you have to give up a little autonomy to be in a group; if your autonomy is more important, then you'll probably always have difficulty finding a good fit in a group.

    Again--nothing wrong with that. It's just a personal choice.

  6. #46
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Interesting heart. This is based on Jung's work? How is it related to the Tarrot?
    There is a lot of archetype symbolism found in the tarot. It is a fascinating subject far aside from the usual ways of looking at the tarot as merely being a fortune telling trick. Joesph Campbell did some work on this as well. Animus/Anima comes out of the ancient times, it was not a new idea that Jung had. The Gnostics, the Alchemists, Rosicrucians and others into the occult always were into this.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    If you want to get comfortable in a group setting, then you honor the conventions of the group and let people know who and what you are. And like it or not, people tend to assign you some kind of place in the pecking order on that basis. And then you accept the treatment that comes with your place in the pecking order, or you challenge the treatment and attempt to move elsewhere on the pecking order.

    If you deliberately buck group conventions and refuse to acknowledge pecking order considerations at all, then you'll always be on the outside. Nothing wrong with that. It's your choice. But you have to give up a little autonomy to be in a group; if your autonomy is more important, then you'll probably always have difficulty finding a good fit in a group.

    Again--nothing wrong with that. It's just a personal choice.
    Point noted. Still there are groups that aren't too terribly focused on pecking order. I do fine in these.

    I also believe that some amount of questioning of the status-quo is needed to keep people honest. I find very few people do so.

    I suppose, in thinking about it, I tend appoint myself this "position" in the pecking order. Just another way of looking at it, I suppose. Still, in my own mind, pecking orders (along with the posturing, etc.) is something I find annoying.

    An amusing thought about posturing. I am the Omega male in the group. Pick all three definitions. By instinct, it is a mix of all three for me.

    I am usually unassuming and easy-going. But when dealing with the "Alpha" types, I want to not just beat them, but crush them into a bloody pulp (figuratively, of course).

    Like I said, it's not rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    There is a lot of archetype symbolism found in the tarot. It is a fascinating subject far aside from the usual ways of looking at the tarot as merely being a fortune telling trick. Joesph Campbell did some work on this as well. Animus/Anima comes out of the ancient times, it was not a new idea that Jung had. The Gnostics, the Alchemists, Rosicrucians and others into the occult always were into this.
    Oh. I can see the fascination. But my own training makes going down these lines very painful for me. I am not able to keep straight what is true and what is speculation.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #48
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    You say that as if you see little of it.
    IRL I see a lot more swagger. And very little clarity. Sometimes guys are brutally honest. But they enjoy the brutality more than the honesty. That takes away the honesty somewhat.

    But I was pointing out Gray's post simply as an example since it was there.

    FWIW, I think many guys nowadays are confused (same with girls) about masculinity, feminity. What makes a man.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Oh. I can see the fascination. But my own training makes going down these lines very painful for me. I am not able to keep straight what is true and what is speculation.
    Even Jung's work on the Animus/Anima seems like speculative theories.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am usually unassuming and easy-going. But when dealing with the "Alpha" types, I want to not just beat them, but crush them into a bloody pulp (figuratively, of course).

    Like I said, it's not rational.
    Well, I won't psychoanalyze you. I'm sure we've all seen instances where the posturing of a leader seemed ridiculous; and even more amazing was how the followers seemed to respect and even encourage such behavior on the part of the leader.

    As for me, I figure we all choose our roles in the group. I chose my role, and the leader chose his/hers. I usually wouldn't want the leader's role--leaders have to make a lot of sacrifices for the group. So I respect the leader for being willing to play that difficult role (even if they do cut a ridiculous figure at times).

    Sometimes I get stuck in leadership roles in the workplace, and that's easier. Rank and seniority lighten the burden in that environment. Under those conditions I can play a convincing Alpha male and even enjoy the role.

    But I don't tend to seek out the top role in social settings. Too much work and too little reward. You have to have a big ego to take on all that work in return for nothing more than the respect of the group. (Which may be what many of us instinctively dislike about leaders--the big ego that inevitably goes with that role.)

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