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  1. #31
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    machismo on the other hand (if my interpretation of your usage of the word is correct) is just on the other side of a fine line from insecurity. the only difference between a pathetic man and the guy strutting around with bulging muscles and a spray-on tan is that the latter knows how to put on an act. your frustration is probably rooted in the fact that in the adolescent years, a lot of people actually believe it.
    Would a woman wearing self tanning lotion and having very fit physic be subject to just as much critique?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Would a woman wearing self tanning lotion and having very fit physic be subject to just as much critique?
    i was using the cliche for sake of example. if you really want a tan that badly, go for the orange glo or whatever they call it--at least that way you aren't risking skin cancer for vanity.

  3. #33
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I've heard the phrase "fake it till you make it." But don't actually know waht that means.

    Is it that we fake confidence till it becomes real?

    It's not something I've tried. Like I mentioned before. My confidence comes with my own perceived experience, but I can see some value in what you are saying.
    It's difficult to explain since I just assumed everyone did this until I learned about MBTI. Have you ever heard of "reframing" in reference to Neuro-Linguistic Programming? It's similar to that. It's a fancy way to describe adult imagination. It's like telling your mind what to think (sounds weird, but it will make sense once you realize what I'm talking about).

    Imagine walking into a room and seeing the people sitting around and think, "Man, these people don't have anything on me! I'm the fuckin man!" It's basically uptalking yourself. What you think has a tangible effect on your outward appearance that most of us don't really notice. Which is where "faking it till you make it" doesn't just apply to the mind. It's entirely possible to learn body language, tone of voice, etc, although it isn't worth the time to many types.

    I didn't find your tone attacking at all. Also, "lek" is essentially "peacock" but more generally applied to the animal kingdom.
    Ah, that makes since.

    EDIT TO ADD: This also occurs in subcultures, as I was saying. If you took a "cliche nerd" and put him with a bunch of gangbangers, he will eventually adopt a hard knocks mentality subconciously.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #34
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    I think that swaggering is mostly about pecking order. If a millionaire is in the company of middle-class guys, he's going to swagger a bit and show off his power suit and his fancy car. But if that same millionaire goes and joins a group of billionaires, he's going to dial back his swagger quite a bit (unless he wants to push an image of being the brash young up-and-comer).

    Swagger in street gangs is mostly about belonging to a big gang. The members of the biggest gangs get to swagger the most and make the biggest noise in the streets. Again, pecking order.

    I don't see a big problem with swagger and advertising one's place in the pecking order. Pecking orders are pretty much universal throughout the animal kingdom. People want to know where they and others stand in a group.

    I don't tend to swagger real obviously. But people tell me I walk tall and project myself into the room. Which is pretty much the way I want things. If I'm going to be a participant in whatever's going on, then I don't want people to mistake me for a lightweight; I'm not one. Sometimes I'll deliberately undersell myself, like with friends where I want to emphasize equality rather than pecking order considerations. But with a crowd of strangers, I swagger a bit and claim what I feel is my appropriate place on the pecking order. Saves time and avoids problems later.

    The only time swaggering goes bad is if people oversell themselves (swagger too much) or undersell themselves (don't swagger enough). In the former case they get laughed at when it eventually turns out that they can't carry their weight relative to the rest of the group. In the latter case, it can lead to some touchiness when the group ignores or treats lightly a fellow who has far greater credentials or weight than the rest of the group.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    It's difficult to explain since I just assumed everyone did this until I learned about MBTI. Have you ever heard of "reframing" in reference to Neuro-Linguistic Programming? It's similar to that. It's a fancy way to describe adult imagination. It's like telling your mind what to think (sounds weird, but it will make sense once you realize what I'm talking about).

    Imagine walking into a room and seeing the people sitting around and think, "Man, these people don't have anything on me! I'm the fuckin man!" It's basically uptalking yourself. What you think has a tangible effect on your outward appearance that most of us don't really notice. Which is where "faking it till you make it" doesn't just apply to the mind. It's entirely possible to learn body language, tone of voice, etc, although it isn't worth the time to many types.
    Yep. Well said.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I've been involved and hurt by guys who were lacking in the are of confidence before and I've come to realize that there's nothing I can do to make them more confident :sad:
    How did you know they were lacking confidence? I am curious. I still largely equate confidence with experience, and vice-versa.

    Something I find hard to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    ygolo, you're over thinking something that is quite simple...

    masculinity is just another fact of life--like, the sky is blue. those who understand that get used to the idea and live it out in a matter-of-fact manner. you don't need to tell people that the sky is blue or even bother arguing about it. just learn to accept your ability and inability and let the chips fall where they will.
    Perhaps it is a simple thing.

    Still. Have you never asked "why is the sky blue?" Were you satisfied with the answer?

    Which link do you believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Albert Einstein
    [...]it is by no means an idle game if we become practiced in analysing long-held commonplace concepts and showing the circumstances on which their justification and usefulness depend, and how they have grown up, individually, out of the givens of experience. Thus their excessive authority will be broken
    I never consider myself "overthinking" anything. I am simply thinking. That is what I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Would a woman wearing self tanning lotion and having very fit physic be subject to just as much critique?
    Probably not.

    I am curious, Heart. Do you have an animus/anima type insight into this area as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    It's difficult to explain since I just assumed everyone did this until I learned about MBTI. Have you ever heard of "reframing" in reference to Neuro-Linguistic Programming? It's similar to that. It's a fancy way to describe adult imagination. It's like telling your mind what to think (sounds weird, but it will make sense once you realize what I'm talking about).

    Imagine walking into a room and seeing the people sitting around and think, "Man, these people don't have anything on me! I'm the fuckin man!" It's basically uptalking yourself. What you think has a tangible effect on your outward appearance that most of us don't really notice. Which is where "faking it till you make it" doesn't just apply to the mind. It's entirely possible to learn body language, tone of voice, etc, although it isn't worth the time to many types.
    Yes. I was aware of the connection. I came across it both in NLP and in Hindu philosophy (and in yoga).

    Still, I find the act of manipulating my beliefs for any other reason than having them correspond to the truth rather distracting.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #37
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Still, I find the act of manipulating my beliefs for any other reason than having them correspond to the truth rather distracting.
    This is, I think, our major inherent difference. To me, knowledge is only as useful as its application. The end justifies the means. I admire your pursuit of truth, though.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  8. #38
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Still. Have you never asked "why is the sky blue?" Were you satisfied with the answer?

    Which link do you believe?
    yeah, it's just a phrase... you're over thinking things again

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Still, I find the act of manipulating my beliefs for any other reason than having them correspond to the truth rather distracting.
    why not strive to find confidence in the real implications (or lack thereof) of what is true instead of trying to alter it? a man doesn't need to deny himself in order to find complacency. in fact, i dont think that one can find true complacency until he or her faces and deals with the truth.

  9. #39
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    FWIW... Grayscale's directness is an example of positive masculinity I'd like to see.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    This is, I think, our major inherent difference. To me, knowledge is only as useful as its application. The end justifies the means. I admire your pursuit of truth, though.
    I suppose, in this particular case, truth itself is mailable, a moving target. In your case, behaving confidently leads to being confident.

    I've tried it as an experiment on myself. Unfortunately, I was too aware of me trying it for it to work. It does work for simple relaxation however.

    Confidence, for me, is built by experience. That much I know about myself.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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