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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    Masculinity: yes, Yes, YES!
    Machismo: NO, NO, NO!

    As CaptainChick said: quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner. They can be (and should be in my opinion) masculine! They are MEN without underlining it.
    Sorry, I've caught the latest bug floating around, so I may not be completely coherent.

    What I was asking is if it is a difference in degree, or a difference in kind?

    By this, I mean, is machismo just masculinity*<a very large number> or is it something different entirely.

    I realize that masculinity is some thing you like, while machismo is something you dislike.

    I was trying to find the boundary.

    So far we've identified insecurity, and "acting" as two separating factors.

    Still, I have yet to meet any person who had no insecurities, or any person who wasn't "acting" to some extent to get along.

    So these seem like differences in degree as well.

    Perhaps, a more basic question is needed: What is it that people find masculine? (I realize this has been addressed to some extent)

    In the U.S. it is different for urban and rural areas, it seems like. In both areas, there is an element of self-sufficiency (which I like), as well as "I can take any pain" mentality (which I dislike). I was not born in the U.S. so my cultural images are a bit crossed.

    Again, any further thoughts are appreciated.
    I am in kind of a rambling mode myself.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #12
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I would say macho men run around yelling they are MEN. They brag around about their manhood, masculinity etc.
    (And they'll proabably have low self-esteem because they have a need to brag about those things )

  3. #13
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    Masculinity: yes, Yes, YES!
    Machismo: NO, NO, NO!

    As CaptainChick said: quietly reserved confident men, who act in a natural, sincere and secure manner. They can be (and should be in my opinion) masculine! They are MEN without underlining it.
    ...And that's what makes them so damn sexy!!!!!!

  4. #14
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post



    Probably. I've known people in the military. I haven't seen much of the swagger in the ones I've met.

    They usually feel little need to "prove themselves," as mentioned above.

    Another thought though...When young, maybe a little bit of a "need to prove oneself" can be a motivating factor, however. Good, bad? What do you think?
    Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of solid people in the Marines that don't fit the machismo category. I'm not this way (although I won't say that as a guy, I don't have insecurities and suffer from pressures to be the stereotypical type-A kind of guy, from time to time). It's just that any occupation where part of your job (at least the training) is to kill, you're gonna have the meat heads that perfectly fit the machismo stereotype. I see it plenty, but it's not overwhelmingly prevalent.

    Make sense?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I would say macho men run around yelling they are MEN. They brag around about their manhood, masculinity etc.
    (And they'll proabably have low self-esteem because they have a need to brag about those things )
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    ...And that's what makes them so damn sexy!!!!!!
    Aren't most men, clearly men without the need to show that they are? From what you two are saying, it seems like machismo would be a rare thing. That hasn't been my experience.

    In the business sphere in particular, a macho boss will often refer to sports analogies to try extract unrealistic amounts of work for unrealistic deadlines, just so he can prove himself to his superiors.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeatGoesOn View Post
    Don't get me wrong. There's plenty of solid people in the Marines that don't fit the machismo category. I'm not this way (although I won't say that as a guy, I don't have insecurities and suffer from pressures to be the stereotypical type-A kind of guy, from time to time). It's just that any occupation where part of your job (at least the training) is to kill, you're gonna have the meat heads that perfectly fit the machismo stereotype. I see it plenty, but it's not overwhelmingly prevalent.

    Make sense?
    I think so. Hopefully, they wise up after seeing combat. Do they?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #16
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    You need to draw a distinction between people who are this way and people who act like this. I would also advise some introspection into why exactly you feel so angry at these people.

    In your words, I know multiple "drug-dealing kids" and people like George Bush (I am from Texas), and I've walked into a class before and had someone tell me, "Don't swagger when you walk in here." Have you ever talked to any of these people? Or are you just frustrated that people perceive them as more manly than other types of guys? Or are you made becuase some people fake it?

    Lumping together all of these people, is like me saying..."Well...I hate it when people play video games because it's so nerdy."

    If you are talking about guys that bully other guys...that is one thing. But it seems like you are talking about guys who walk and talk a certain way.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #17
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post


    I think so. Hopefully, they wise up after seeing combat. Do they?
    Can't really speak for anyone else. I wouldn't say so though.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    You need to draw a distinction between people who are this way and people who act like this. I would also advise some introspection into why exactly you feel so angry at these people.
    Well, I have. I can't say it is at all rational. If you mean to draw a distinction between people who do harm, like drug dealers, and people who swagger. I know that they are different rationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    In your words, I know multiple "drug-dealing kids" and people like George Bush (I am from Texas), and I've walked into a class before and had someone tell me, "Don't swagger when you walk in here." Have you ever talked to any of these people? Or are you just frustrated that people perceive them as more manly than other types of guys? Or are you made becuase some people fake it?

    Lumping together all of these people, is like me saying..."Well...I hate it when people play video games because it's so nerdy."
    It really is like the last statement. I don't believe it makes any sense. A lot of things are lumped together.

    I have talked to people who draw that same visceral response from me (one is my brother). I generally like most people, and I would have to be in a rather strange state of mind, for this particular urge to reach the surface. But I know it is there.

    Am I frustrated that people perceive swaggering individuals as more manly? Yes. Again, it makes little sense to me as to why I am frustrated.

    I also don't like that people fake it.

    For the record, I chose Bush as an example to show how irrational the response is (and I know other people have a similar irrational response).

    If we want to push the state based stereo-types, I have seen a California type swagger and a New York type sagger, and both are as annoying to me as the Texan swagger of Bush.

    As an other absurd example, although I generally like Rodney Dangerfield's characters and like his comedy. I get the same visceral urge towards him.

    I know it to be a weird bias. But it is one I have. I think it is better to know about it than not.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #19
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I am biased in that I have never really been attracted to charismatic, "look at me", ubercocky guys.

    I like, and am attracted to guys who are comfortable in their skin, and who don't feel the constant need to dominate a crowd, or be the center of attention. But then again, I can only speak for myself, and I admittedly have always been attracted to introverts.

    Regardless, the understated, contemplative, confident, masculine guys that I speak of, are definitely in the extreme minority, and not the majority.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I am biased in that I have never really been attracted to charismatic, "look at me", ubercocky guys.

    I like, and am attracted to guys who are comfortable in their skin, and who don't feel the constant need to dominate a crowd, or be the center of attention. But then again, I can only speak for myself, and I admittedly have always been attracted to introverts.

    Regardless, the understated, contemplative, confident, masculine guys that I speak of, are definitely in the extreme minority, and not the majority.
    That brings up a point about confidence, cockiness, etc.

    For me confidence is proportional to the relative perceived experience I has in a particular context.

    If I perceive that I don't have a lot of experience in a particular context, I am not confident.

    If I perceive that I have more experience with something than I actually do, the I am overconfident.

    Cockiness, seems like something else entirely. It reminds me of "peacocking," I suppose "showing off" with the aim to impress/intimidate.

    This has actually been helpful for me. Because, trying to "impress" anyone is something I find annoying also. Unfortunately, it is a necessary part of daily life. Often times, there IS a need to impress to be given the freedoms I am seeking.

    Perhaps, my visceral dislike of machismo, is connected to my annoyance at needing to "impress" people.

    Anyway, this thread wasn't intended at self-therapy.

    Feel free to ramble on yourselves.

    [/rambling]

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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