Anger

[INTJMom]

How do you process anger? How do you know when it is justified, or when it is indulgence?

I have a great deal of trouble processing anger. It so quickly alters thinking. How can you trust it? It seems rooted in entitlement which I have long come to see as a useless frame of mind. I have some anger at the moment, but don't have a system by which I can tell if it is justified. How do you know when anger is constructive vs. destructive?

First of all, I have anger problems, too. I've studied a few self-help books on the subject, and they were pretty helpful. I've come a long way, but I still go through spurts where I struggle now and then - and especially when my hormones have run amuck.

I think what you said about anger being rooted in entitlement applies to the whole human race. One of the things I've learned is that if I want to have a peaceful spirit, I have to have an attitude of yielding my rights. And it really works. When you realize you don't have any "rights" and you're not entitled to any expectations, there's a lot less stuff out there that can ruffle your feathers.

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What adds a difficult layer is if the hurt or violation was not intended. Then how do you feel angry? There is still something that needs to be worked through even if you understand why it happened.
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I have learned that sometimes I may offend or hurt someone accidentally. When I do that, it's still my responsibility to apologize and try to make things right. It doesn't matter that I didn't mean it, or I didn't do it on purpose. I angered them, and so I should apologize. Now the person doesn't always accept my apology, but I am not responsible for that; they are. If I hurt or offended someone, I would want them to tell me, so I could make it right, but not all people are that way. Sometimes, when I inform someone they hurt or offended me, they get defensive. It's too bad we can't get lessons on this in school.

Every now and then, I get angry out of proportion to what was done to me. When that happens, I take it as a sign that an inner wound, probably from my childhood, has been re-opened. I have a ritual I go through for healing from old wounds which includes forgiveness of the perpetrator/s of the original wound, which is the only true way to get it healed for good.

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when I've seen someone get really mad and yell at someone - even if it's been at me - that's been the deal breaker for me!
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You reminded me - one of the reasons I fell in love with my husband is that he can't yell (I came from a family of yellers). I mean if he tries, he chokes and coughs!

I've always found anger to be destructive first and constructive second. Ergo I usually disappear if I'm angry. Once I've had time to kill you sixteen ways from sunday in my head a more bright and breezy mood settles and then I can return with my wits in tact and kick your ass

This whole internalise = bad thing that get's bandied about either I fail to understand it or as far as I can see it's an extroverts witch hunt. In my understanding of internalise that's exactly what I do with my anger. I stop emitting anything until the anger is processed ...

I think what you're describing is a healthy non-destructive way to deal with your anger, and I applaud that.

Perhaps that's different from what the psychologists mean about turning your anger inward because it's a well-known saying in those circles that, "Depression is anger turned inward". I know when I get depressed it's because I'm angry and usually don't even know it. I'm not one to be "in touch with my feelings".

It seems that the way I internalize my anger is different from the way that you do it. Yours seems to be more healthy. My way is self-destructive.

 

[CzeCze]

Taking into consideration that everyone talks to themselves and thinks to themselves and feels their emotions singularly, everyone is going to turn inward in a sense with their anger and pain, especially to internally sort things out and process. Everyone needs a 'time out' to relfect and meditate.

I think 'internalise' though implies that you are BURYING it inside and not allowing it to see the light of day. Basically taking on more than you can chew and trying to solve something yourself with no outlet.

I think there are instances where you can process and 'solve' a problem on your own. And then there are cases where you really do need to reach out or express something by crying, yelling, confronting, or even just acknowledging something.

And I can see why Xander might see this need to 'express' things as 'I' bashing, but it's not necessarily saying you must go into histrionics or react the same way to pain as the next person.

Everyone's internal resources and needs are very different. I think if you have those intrapersonal skills and knowledge to heal yourself, that's wonderful. But I think honestly most people need a helping hand. It's not so much a personality thing as it is an environment thing. Emotional health and taking care of yourself isn't really taught in school.

At least for me, I often wonder how much healing I've actually done and how much of it is just time making me forget things. Is forgetting something really the same as having healed from it? I don't think so. I'm also a big believer that whether or not you consciously acknowledge something, the emotional and physical effects still remain. That's why I'm wary of the 'time heals all wounds' saying.

 

[Mempy]

And when you do make a habit of not letting yourself be trampled on, you get guilt trips from people saying you're "insensitive" and "mean". Yeah, cos I'm so mean for not letting you abuse me, huh?

Absolutely, especially self-righteous people who have pretensions to having better judgment than everyone else. That's what happened to me the other day with my family. My mom and brother see my backbone as being selfish.

I got into an argument with my brother, who was home from the marines over Christmas. While we were both watching a TV show that was just getting to the good part, his phone rang and he answered it loudly, completing disregarding that I was intent on my show and couldn't hear it over his voice. I turned the volume up, which pissed him off instantly. Leaping to his feet, he turned the TV off and stood in front of it so I couldn't turn it on again. He criticized me angrily for being rude and disrespectful to him by turning the volume up. I told him I thought he was disrespecting me by answering his phone so loudly. He could have taken his call in another room. His phone call could be put on hold, whereas if I missed a part of my show there was no rewinding. He was so pissed. He went into the kitchen and began telling my mom what happened. She sided with him immediately and arbitrarily, but no less adamantly.

My bro even called me "evil," to which I responded, "That's right, I'm more evil than Hitler and Satan put together."

When they called me selfish a second or third time, I said, "Absolutely! If I weren't selfish, I'd get completely walked on!"

They couldn't stand that I wouldn't admit to being rude, but I easily and gladly admitted to being selfish. They wanted me to admit I was wrong, but I couldn't do that.

Managing your anger is essential to being properly assertive. Anger can be calm, controlled and a silent force rather than a temper tantrum like it is often considered. In any case, it is still anger.

I agree that to be effective and to be respected, anger must not control you. If you want things your way, you aren't going to get it by flipping tables over. Fear is not the same thing as respect, and that's partly what I meant when I said that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Assertiveness isn't vinegar, but anger, when unleashed, is.

Asking "nicely" without being firm is not being assertive and may signal that your boundaries are thin and that you would be ready to get walked upon.

I agree. I wasn't suggesting that being diplomatic or asking nicely meant one wasn't assertive. Asking with politeness doesn't mean you can't be firm, does it? No. It just means you have a reign on your anger. That's admirable.

However, you equate "good anger" with assertiveness, right? I don't know if they're the same. To me, it seems possible to be firm and assertive without necessarily being angry.

This thread isn't simply about anger and being fearful of its consequences. It's about how to tell when it's warranted and constructive and when it's not.

The impression I got was that you sensed submissiveness in this thread and were angered by it. I meant that what many of us were doing in this thread, exploring anger, didn't connote submissiveness. Maybe I misread you.

First of all, I have anger problems, too. I've studied a few self-help books on the subject, and they were pretty helpful. I've come a long way, but I still go through spurts where I struggle now and then - and especially when my hormones have run amuck.

I think what you said about anger being rooted in entitlement applies to the whole human race. One of the things I've learned is that if I want to have a peaceful spirit, I have to have an attitude of yielding my rights. And it really works. When you realize you don't have any "rights" and you're not entitled to any expectations, there's a lot less stuff out there that can ruffle your feathers.

Very nicely said! Absolutely. When you don't expect the world to care about you or hand you things on a silver platter, you're surprised less. When you feel that you are alone in the sense that you can't depend on anyone else to like you, understand you or stick up for you, you feel more serenity in those situations where no one does, and believe me, there are a lot of those situations in life.

 

[INTJMom]

Absolutely, especially self-righteous people who have pretensions to having better judgment than everyone else. That's what happened to me the other day with my family. My mom and brother see my backbone as being selfish.

I got into an argument with my brother, who was home from the marines over Christmas. While we were both watching a TV show that was just getting to the good part, his phone rang and he answered it loudly, completing disregarding that I was intent on my show and couldn't hear it over his voice. I turned the volume up, which pissed him off instantly. Leaping to his feet, he turned the TV off and stood in front of it so I couldn't turn it on again. He criticized me angrily for being rude and disrespectful to him by turning the volume up. I told him I thought he was disrespecting me by answering his phone so loudly. He could have taken his call in another room. His phone call could be put on hold, whereas if I missed a part of my show there was no rewinding. He was so pissed. He went into the kitchen and began telling my mom what happened. She sided with him immediately and arbitrarily, but no less adamantly.

My bro even called me "evil," to which I responded, "That's right, I'm more evil than Hitler and Satan put together."

When they called me selfish a second or third time, I said, "Absolutely! If I weren't selfish, I'd get completely walked on!"

They couldn't stand that I wouldn't admit to being rude, but I easily and gladly admitted to being selfish. They wanted me to admit I was wrong, but I couldn't do that.
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Yeah, it is surprising that your brother couldn't see that what he did was wrong. I don't know, perhaps there was some desperate soul on the phone who was on the brink of self-destruction and he couldn't interrupt that person long enough to let them know he had to change phones. I'm presuming he had to change phones because it's just plain rude to not get up and walk out of the room when you are fully capable of doing so.

Additionally, turning up the tv has the same effect in my home too - escalation. We don't have tivo, so we try not to interrupt each other when we're watching tv. I'm sure if anyone got a phone call on their cell, they would walk into the next room because it is a well known scientific fact that it's difficult to hear the tv when someone else is talking in the same room. Being a Marine, one would think your brother would realize that, which is why I wonder if there wasn't an extenuating circumstance you weren't aware of.

Your story brings up a good point though. I have to stand up for myself too every now and then, but if it escalates into a conflict, then I feel as though I have been unsuccessful. So it's my goal not only to "win" my point, but to do it in a peaceful way - one which usually includes, as you say, honey instead of vinegar.

I only have one tv show I religiously watch and that's American Idol. According to Murphy's Law, I will be interrupted while watching the one tv show I care about every week, so I always put the VCR on because you know the phone is gonna ring, and it's gonna be for me, when I'm trying to watch American Idol! :steam:

Here's an idea: if you think the tv/phone incident could happen again, it might behoove you to learn how to quickly switch on the Closed Captioning! I use CC every now and then, like when I'm in the next room making dinner.

But I agree with you. What your brother did was rude. The polite thing would have been to take his phone call into another room.

 

[Mempy]

I only have one tv show I religiously watch and that's American Idol. According to Murphy's Law, I will be interrupted while watching the one tv show I care about every week, so I always put the VCR on because you know the phone is gonna ring, and it's gonna be for me, when I'm trying to watch American Idol! :steam:

LOL, you amuse me.

Here's an idea: if you think the tv/phone incident could happen again, it might behoove you to learn how to quickly switch on the Closed Captioning! I use CC every now and then, like when I'm in the next room making dinner.

That's not a bad idea. I didn't even think of that. Thanks.

I doubt his circumstances were extenuating, because he immediately went into the kitchen and began getting my mom on his side. I asked him later that if his call was so important that he had to interrupt my show, why he got off the phone so quickly, and he told me that I was embarrassing him in front of his friend. Ha! I think that's slang for, "I'm a dunce, and I didn't want my friend to hear that I'm a dunce."

 

[INTJMom]

LOL, you amuse me.



That's not a bad idea. I didn't even think of that. Thanks.

I doubt his circumstances were extenuating, because he immediately went into the kitchen and began getting my mom on his side. I asked him later that if his call was so important that he had to interrupt my show, why he got off the phone so quickly, and he told me that I was embarrassing him in front of his friend. Ha! I think that's slang for, "I'm a dunce, and I didn't want my friend to hear that I'm a dunce."

So he was on a cordless phone and could have left the room. He was being just plain thoughtless and rude then. Is he an INTx?

 

[Mempy]

So he was on a cordless phone and could have left the room. He was being just plain thoughtless and rude then. Is he an INTx?

Cell phone, actually. He's an ESTP to the best of my knowledge, but I haven't given him the test. I also think he's an enneagram type seven, possibly an eight. I'm almost positive my assessment is correct, or pretty close to the mark.

Yes, he totally could have left the room. No question there. Yeah, he's almost always pretty thoughtless, but at least when he's not insecure and mean he and I can be pretty fun and playful with each other.

 

[INTJMom]

Cell phone, actually. He's an ESTP to the best of my knowledge, but I haven't given him the test. I also think he's an enneagram type seven, possibly an eight. I'm almost positive my assessment is correct, or pretty close to the mark.

Yes, he totally could have left the room. No question there. Yeah, he's almost always pretty thoughtless, but at least when he's not insecure and mean he and I can be pretty fun and playful with each other.

Yeah. The most selfish person I know on the planet is a male ESTP.

 

[Mempy]

Yeah. The most selfish person I know on the planet is a male ESTP.