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  1. #81
    Senior Member geedoenfj's Avatar
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    Default People who refuse to change their unhappy situations.

    Most of the time it's not a matter of logic, doing the right thing do not have to be logical..
    Believe me if I can change my unhappy situation I won't hesitate..
    Work for a cause not for Applause
    Live to express not to Impress


    “sometimes... confused people are funnier, nicer, and more open-minded than non-confused people.” labyrinthine


    6w7 > 1w2 > 4w3

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  2. #82
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I told her six months ago. I started therapy around the same time. And been working on myself diligently while trying to repair this disaster of a marriage.

    I just need to try a little longer, I suspect. She is getting healthier. We were both badly messed up, which is why we found each other because we have similar issues.
    This is very good. Regardless of the outcome, it provides an anchor for peace of mind to know that you left no stone unturned and genuinely tried everything. Most people second guess themselves after making a change because there is always good and bad in it. Doing everything you can imagine to do first to fix the situation either fixes the situation, or provides peace of mind knowing that there wasn't anything else you could have done.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  3. #83
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Mental limits of thought that avoid what is beyond one's comfort of expectancy and routine. We're limited by emotional barriers that we don't often realise therefore also avoid considering possibilities out of one's comforting perception.

  4. #84
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    If someone refuses to change or try to change when they are in a tight spot, I pay them no mind and offer little to no advice.

    I help those who help themselves.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
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    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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  5. #85
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    In my experience people who present like this either have the insight but think they're out of options altogether and just stick to what they know or dont have insight and attribute their unhappy situations to things besides themselves.

    I know a couple of people for sure who imagine "its not them" but not simply that "its not them", which you know, maybe its not, but that its "everyone else", I mean literally EVERYONE else.

    How do you do that? I mean like you can have the misfortune to have one or two people around you who're lacking or upsetting or stressed out themselves and stress out everyone else too but you cant believe that EVERYONE is a cause of unhappiness to you.

  6. #86
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geedoenfj View Post
    Most of the time it's not a matter of logic, doing the right thing do not have to be logical..
    Believe me if I can change my unhappy situation I won't hesitate..
    Yes, largely we are creatures of habit, but when things go wrong, we are in the difficult situation of changing our habits.

    It is a difficult situation because it takes 21 days of conscious effort to form a new habit. So for 21 days we must work consciously to form a new habit. It is far easier to slip back into the old habits, which are unconscious and require no effort.

    I think the difficulty of changing a habit should be recognised and practical social support should be provided to those trying to form a new habit.

    I think the process of forming a new habit should be discussed and talked about publicly. The process is largely mechanical and the more we know about it, the more we will be able to use it productively to form new habits.

  7. #87
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Yes, largely we are creatures of habit, but when things go wrong, we are in the difficult situation of changing our habits.

    It is a difficult situation because it takes 21 days of conscious effort to form a new habit. So for 21 days we must work consciously to form a new habit. It is far easier to slip back into the old habits, which are unconscious and require no effort.

    I think the difficulty of changing a habit should be recognised and practical social support should be provided to those trying to form a new habit.

    I think the process of forming a new habit should be discussed and talked about publicly. The process is largely mechanical and the more we know about it, the more we will be able to use it productively to form new habits.
    We are locked into autopilot scripts, programs, and trances. We don't even realize we are giving up our freedom to choose by acting on autopilot.

    In theory, acting autopilot is helpful and healthy---car driving is much easier in autopilot mode than as a new driver overthinking the entire process.

    Of course, if we can free ourselves from these scripts, we can still act without overthinking, being our true self.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

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    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  8. #88
    mercenary SiegfriedSchtauffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think from the outside, people will see these unhappy people's situations as simple, but from their inside perspective, there are so many hurdles, it is overwhelming. It's not a stubborn refusal to change so much as a hopeless resignation. The worst thing you can do is offer a series of suggestions. In such situations, most people offer trite advice that is just patronizing to the unhappy person; likely, they have already thought of such things. What they need is someone to build them up & comfort them, so they have the confidence in themselves to find their own solutions.

    I'd compare such a mental state to someone with a broken leg who wants to run a marathon. You could tell them they need to get up & start running if they ever want to be in shape, but that completely ignores the fact that their leg is broken and it's just plain going to take time & nurture to heal before they are strong enough to run again. It comes off as rather dense & insensitive to throw suggestions at them in the meantime. They probably know what they need to do anyway, so it's better to simply be supportive while they heal and encourage them when they do start to take some steps forward.

    I definitely see how it can be draining to be there for someone emotionally and never see them make effort to improve though. At some point, if they feel like an emotional leech, then maybe it's time to cut them off. It could be a wake-up call...maybe.
    I completely agree with the first paragraph but not with the rest. Most of these people are beyond a stage that is a downspiral and never heals. The problem isn't the state, it is the tendency of state change. With negative tendency the broken leg becomes just more and more broken with time.

    I think someone who has total lack of interest in her environment should radically change/replace it. A huge goal can spark up the light but she has to be smart enough to realize that she can actually reach it otherwise the "unreachable dream" attracts even more disinterest/apathy.

    Little silly ideas of people will unlikely to attract her (especially in her current environment based on OP's description) - in contrast they might be seen as a set of annoying useless expectations.

    Long term apathy can be very very dangerous, it's better to leave it as soon as possible.
    Health, Freedom, Fun.

    "The only true power comes from within."
    "Honesty is a very expensive gift, Don't expect it from cheap people." - Warren Buffett
    "The truth will set you free - but first it will make you miserable." - James A. Garfield
    "It is far better for a man to go wrong in freedom than to go right in chains." - Thomas Henry Huxley
    "Failure is success if we learn from it." - Malcolm Forbes
    "Everything you want is on the other side of fear." - Jack Canfield

  9. #89
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    In my experience people who present like this either have the insight but think they're out of options altogether and just stick to what they know or dont have insight and attribute their unhappy situations to things besides themselves.

    I know a couple of people for sure who imagine "its not them" but not simply that "its not them", which you know, maybe its not, but that its "everyone else", I mean literally EVERYONE else.

    How do you do that? I mean like you can have the misfortune to have one or two people around you who're lacking or upsetting or stressed out themselves and stress out everyone else too but you cant believe that EVERYONE is a cause of unhappiness to you.
    Being stuck in an oppressive type of culture can certainly cause that. You're right that a lot of people generalise their dislike to include humanity after a trauma, in order to protect their own, already wounded ego, to protect themselves and that it often is without real cause.

    But say you're stuck in a lower class type of environment, for instance, and you're trying to do something different than those around you. 9 out of 10, they will drag you down. It's part of the social, tribal dynamic where people get really really unhappy with you when you attempt to change your role in the pack, so to speak. You see this in people who try to free themselves from toxic environments such as cults, for instance. But it just as easily happens in a dysfunctional family. I've seen a really bright girl being told by her family that suuuure, she could go to college - only to demand she still do just about every household chore on the side, laugh at her when she was studying and get insulted when she enthusiastically shared something she'd learned and being told that she was feeling superior to them now that she was going to college. They did everything to undermine her and in the end, she complied with their wishes: she flunked out, believing she was just like her family - not smart enough to make it through college. Iow, she was indoctrinated with whatever everyone else in that family believed to be true, whether true or not. And of course ,once she saw the 'error of her ways', she was welcomed back with open arms - and handed the ironing board. I met these people, they were the nicest, hardest working, decent people you could imagine - but their ego was threatened by her having a chance to do more than they did with their lives and they didn't want to let her go out out of fear she would never return to the family once she was 'free'.

    Imagine having to escape your entire culture - which does the same but on much larger scale. Think being told that all you're good for is household chores and obedience and you're too stupid for school. That it is normal for your husband to beat the crap out of you, according to your society, because he feels like it / you must've deserved it. Or to be a slave in another culture who firmly believes that slavery is part of your lot in life as you were captured during a war (like our civilisation once upon a time did). Wouldn't you hate all of humanity and believe they were capable of nothing else but cruelty? In these cases, the generalisation that everyone around you is wrong...well, is quite right.
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  10. #90
    mercenary SiegfriedSchtauffen's Avatar
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    What you described is absolutely true and I think one has to see it with her own eyes to completely understand what's going on. This kind of drag force is very strong in a lower class environment. I still remember how envy my family was about my high school education even before I finished it (!!!) and their reaction was exactly as you described! The only difference in my case was that I didn't see the error of my ways and the result was extremely accumulated hatred between me and my family at the age of 16 with huge tension. We literally didn't speak, just lived in the same house.

    I think the solution to change things is probably leaving everything behind. I can't imagine an incremental approach to solve this problem, hence my recommendation for a radical change with huge steps.
    Health, Freedom, Fun.

    "The only true power comes from within."
    "Honesty is a very expensive gift, Don't expect it from cheap people." - Warren Buffett
    "The truth will set you free - but first it will make you miserable." - James A. Garfield
    "It is far better for a man to go wrong in freedom than to go right in chains." - Thomas Henry Huxley
    "Failure is success if we learn from it." - Malcolm Forbes
    "Everything you want is on the other side of fear." - Jack Canfield

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