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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    you guys have to take into account that she's a diagnosed depressive. she could up her meds like shortnsweet said, but it's not as simple as that either. :\ if you've never seen it, it's not "sadness" or some downer mood that healthy people experience and get out of eventually. it shouldn't be left at though, i agree.
    I was just dealing with it from the more general sense. Specific cases can change things.

    As far as the greatness thing and being all you can be. I think it is more a case of deciding what you want for yourself and making that happen. And being honest with yourself. If you want a life working in a retail store and living with cats that is great. Just being honest and working towards what you have defined for yourself as an individual as success for you.

  2. #42
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    i am watching this thread - as i would like to learn more about this tendency in people. when i hate something my first instinct is to change/shake-up/move.
    I’ve wondered before if Pi dominants are most likely to get stuck in ruts. It seems like it. When perception is mostly directed inward and Pe is the least function, options in the external world are hard to see. We’ve kinda got blinders on (regarding the external world) compared to you ExxPs. We just don't see 'em.


    I think, so far in this thread, most of the people who have the hardest time understanding being stuck in a rut are ExxPs (Pe dominant).

    I'm trying to think of a reciprocal equivalent. I'm not sure this fits, but it's like asking "Why does my friend have such a hard time commiting to something and settling down?"
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #43
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    We are our own worst enemies. I would be _exceedingly_ careful about judging another for their perceived failures. You do not know how fierce their internal battles are.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  4. #44
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think from the outside, people will see these unhappy people's situations as simple, but from their inside perspective, there are so many hurdles, it is overwhelming. It's not a stubborn refusal to change so much as a hopeless resignation. The worst thing you can do is offer a series of suggestions. In such situations, most people offer trite advice that is just patronizing to the unhappy person; likely, they have already thought of such things. What they need is someone to build them up & comfort them, so they have the confidence in themselves to find their own solutions.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Exactly, from your perspective it seems easy, but your perspective is limited to the surface. Your perspective does not see fears, insecurities & wounds deeply rooted from past experience. The biggest obstacles are not physical - they're emotional and psychological.
    to both of these posts. I am someone who is chronically 'stuck' like this, and nothing is more frustrating that the usual, 'just do x, just get off your ass, just think positive, just believe in yourself' kind of talk. I've tried to do these things for ages. I know most people don't know what else to do, and I don't really expect them to. There is so much going on mentally that I don't know where to begin to explain.

    The psychological obstacles are as varied as the people themselves, and there's been lots of possibilities mentioned already: a sense of hopelessness and helplessness, fear of failure, fear of what failure might mean about one's self or one's future, a string negative past experiences involving possible actions that might change things, fear of success/change/not being able to live up to expectations, a sense of not being worthy of success or approval or help, confusion and uncertainty....It can become all knotted together, so any action considered can set off a chain of ruminations, worries and doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberries View Post
    i am watching this thread - as i would like to learn more about this tendency in people. when i hate something my first instinct is to change/shake-up/move.
    I envy people like this. Of course, that might cause problems at times too. I just don't have any experience with those.

    I think it does have something to do with introversion/extraversion actually. That doesn't mean all introverts struggle with being stuck, or that the ones that do can't also have times of feeling inspired and productive. But under a lot of stress/pain/confusion, some people are likely to act out impulsively, and some are more prone to getting lost in their heads and becoming paralyzed. Other personality factors likely come into play here too.

    As much as it irritates me when people become impatient or judgmental with this paralysis and inertia, I admit I'm not usually any more understanding with the opposite reaction. When I see people impulsively saying or doing things they regret later (out of emotions, urges, whims) I look at that and think, Good lord, just think for a minute before you speak/act. How hard can it be? So I can see how baffling people like myself can be to those who don't share these tendencies. I can see how they'd look at me and think, Good lord, stop ruminating and do something. How hard can it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Isn't the mindset as simple as the price of change or the perceived price of change is less or seen as less than the benefit of the change?
    I think if you substituted 'change' for 'action' (price of action vs. benefit of action) that would cover most of this stuff. Taking action, or even thinking about taking action, can bring up intense feelings of helplessness, fear or self-doubt that the person would feel compelled to avoid. This is true whether the action results in change or not. And if any benefit resulting from action is perceived to be unlikely or small, it can seem as if it just isn't worth dealing with this pain.

    Depression can really affect these perceptions: fears become exaggerated, the effort required can seem overwhelming, and the sense of hopelessness can make you very pessimistic and unlikely to have much hope that your actions will benefit you. So it can increase the perceived price of action while decreasing the perceived benefit.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    I think if you substituted 'change' for 'action' (price of action vs. benefit of action) that would cover most of this stuff. Taking action, or even thinking about taking action, can bring up intense feelings of helplessness, fear or self-doubt that the person would feel compelled to avoid. This is true whether the action results in change or not. And if any benefit resulting from action is perceived to be unlikely or small, it can seem as if it just isn't worth dealing with this pain.
    I think that is a really good point. Yeah.

  6. #46
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I guess the mindset goes my unhappiness and hate gives me meaning. Separates me and gives me my identity apart from people. I have something that defines me, no matter how bad it is.
    Wolfy! I think I get what you are saying!

    The failures in our lives, those situations when we have tried and floundered, it is not possible to isolate them from the moments that went well, right?

    It is the good that lives with the bad in life, and the bad that comes with the good; the Yin and the Yang.

    It is not possible to mutually exclude one from the other, but a very common fallacy of human thinking as deluding ourselves of the possibility that we are perfect, if even only at certain moments, is more comforting that accepting that our greatest moments might potentially occur at some point proximal to significant failures.

    Am I jiving your drift? If not set me straight, Brother.

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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Wolfy! I think I get what you are saying!

    The failures in our lives, those situations when we have tried and floundered, it is not possible to isolate them from the moments that went well, right?

    It is the good that lives with the bad in life, and the bad that comes with the good; the Yin and the Yang.

    It is not possible to mutually exclude one from the other, but a very common fallacy of human thinking as deluding ourselves of the possibility that we are perfect, if even only at certain moments, is more comforting that accepting that our greatest moments might potentially occur at some point proximal to significant failures.

    Am I jiving your drift? If not set me straight, Brother.

    -A.
    What you are saying is true but I was more addressing it the other way. In the other direction. The thought that we can never have what we want, the dissonance there and defining ourselves by that. I can't have what I want, I am a failure, that kind of thinking. Limiting your definition of yourself and your potential. I am my life. See the part in bold, imagine the other way, It is not possible to mutually exclude one from the other, but a very common fallacy of human thinking as deluding ourselves of the possibility that we are imperfect and unable to succeed.

    I get the feeling it is the same thing on a different angle. I think that is the mindset that leads to people getting stuck.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    While having a few margaritas at a TGIFriday's after work one evening, I was hanging out with a table of folks who were all contractors from various industries that were building a new prison in a town about 45 minutes from here.

    One of the fellows uttered a priceless pearl of wisdom toward the end of the evening.

    A young man in the group was interested in one of the ladies, and she was interested in him, but not letting on that she was. As she and her friend left for the ladies room, the guy next to me told the young would-be ladies man the following: "You have to make the move big guy, if you don't act you will lose your opportunity."

    The young guy said "I'll make a move when I feel it's the right time."

    The other dude then said: "You are afraid of your greatness, not failure, everyone is."

    I almost fell out, not only because the saying and the timing of the remark were classic, but because it is true.

    FAILURE is easy to live with, there is no responsibility in managing its outcomes, but several free tickets to wallow in your own self pity.

    Dealing with GREATNESS is a much more difficult matter. You must maintain your level of performance, you must not fall below a certain threshold, you must prove for more than a given moment that you have what it takes to be the man of the hour, the chosen one, the BBMFIC (Big Bad Motherfucker In Charge).

    It is now my opinion that many people accept the role of the victim, in order to remain in the comfort of their failures, in order to forgoe trying to better themselves, in order be OK with barely maintaing the minimum acceptable level of performance that life places on them.

    This type of thinking is a pity, for each moment we live is ours but once; each second that passses brings us one step closer to the grave. In my final moments the thoughts that will bring me solace are the great moments of my life, the times when I looked fate in the eye and forged an outcome of my choosing, the times when I rolled the dice on myself having what it took to make things happen and winning the bet. Those who embrace failure and mediocrity will pass into a different oblivion, unless they muster the courage to pursue their own greatness, and the fortitude to live with it once they attain it.
    Great post! It took me a few reads to absorb it all. Love every word of it.

  9. #49
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I think that OrangeAppled's quote can really apply to anyone -- it's not an "Si" thing, necessarily. Anyone, when faced with repeated failure to gain some control over their own circumstances, could I think respond in the same manner. IMHO, one of the, and probably *the* best indicator of quality mental health is the belief that you have some sort of control over your life. Some people just don't -- they certainly lack the belief, and may or may not lack the circumstances, objectively, to make a change. It's definitely a vicious cycle of downer-ism that saps the will. A positive-feedback loop of misery, of sorts.


    I don't agree with this -- not that it's impossible or that it never occurs, but that it's completely outside the scope of the psyche of the person who's "stuck in the rut" of failure and lack of control over their own life. People who are stuck in a cycle of failure and feel like their outcomes are independent of their own actions rarely, if ever, consider success at this scale. At *most*, it's a fear of *trying and failing again*... trying and failing being worse than simply not trying and clutching to a glimmer of hope that "at least I didn't fail again". Success, or especially greatness, is never even considered -- certainly not enough for it to be the major factor in fear.

    I was reading a book that had a good piece on this a while back (digs through bookshelf to find it...). Here it is... Brain Rules, by John Medina. He has a section on stress, and the phenomenon of "learned helplessness". In it, he mentions a (horrific) experiment where a dog is sitting in an open cage, whimpering as it receives painful shocks. The dog doesn't get up, or make any move to get away, even though it would take minimal effort to walk out of the cage -- it's not restrained. A few days earlier, the dog *was* restrained, struggling and fighting to escape tie-down straps as the shocks were applied. But as the hours went on, and fighting and clawing to escape the shocks proved fruitless, the dog broke down and lost its will to fight back. Its will to fight back didn't return when it *could* have helped. It's a stress response, basically -- studies and works to try and help people who survived concentration camps showed that people show the same sort of responses.

    Moral of that story is... optimism that you have control over your own circumstances, is absolutely essential. Stress responses can and will *own* you, otherwise. People have different thresholds for such things, and undoubtedly a good social support group helps a huge deal. But it's *not* something that everyone can just snap out of. The bitterness probably flows from that.

    Having said that, Shorty, this is something that she (and her psychiatrist, if she's on medication), should work on. Sounds like you've already done what you can.
    *Nodding.* Great response. I remember that dog study.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’ve wondered before if Pi dominants are most likely to get stuck in ruts. It seems like it. When perception is mostly directed inward and Pe is the least function, options in the external world are hard to see. We’ve kinda got blinders on (regarding the external world) compared to you ExxPs. We just don't see 'em.


    I think, so far in this thread, most of the people who have the hardest time understanding being stuck in a rut are ExxPs (Pe dominant).

    I'm trying to think of a reciprocal equivalent. I'm not sure this fits, but it's like asking "Why does my friend have such a hard time commiting to something and settling down?"
    The statement about introverts- I agree. It must be harder for some introverts to come to snap decisions regarding the outside world. (Just as much as it is for some extroverts to actually sit down and regroup and think about what they are doing.) I thought of that opposite argument when I went to bed last night.. Seems like it's more acceptable by society to be a "mover and shaker" so thankfully we don't have to answer that question!

    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    to both of these posts. I am someone who is chronically 'stuck' like this, and nothing is more frustrating that the usual, 'just do x, just get off your ass, just think positive, just believe in yourself' kind of talk. I've tried to do these things for ages. I know most people don't know what else to do, and I don't really expect them to. There is so much going on mentally that I don't know where to begin to explain.

    The psychological obstacles are as varied as the people themselves, and there's been lots of possibilities mentioned already: a sense of hopelessness and helplessness, fear of failure, fear of what failure might mean about one's self or one's future, a string negative past experiences involving possible actions that might change things, fear of success/change/not being able to live up to expectations, a sense of not being worthy of success or approval or help, confusion and uncertainty....It can become all knotted together, so any action considered can set off a chain of ruminations, worries and doubts.



    I envy people like this. Of course, that might cause problems at times too. I just don't have any experience with those.

    I think it does have something to do with introversion/extraversion actually. That doesn't mean all introverts struggle with being stuck, or that the ones that do can't also have times of feeling inspired and productive. But under a lot of stress/pain/confusion, some people are likely to act out impulsively, and some are more prone to getting lost in their heads and becoming paralyzed. Other personality factors likely come into play here too.

    As much as it irritates me when people become impatient or judgmental with this paralysis and inertia, I admit I'm not usually any more understanding with the opposite reaction. When I see people impulsively saying or doing things they regret later (out of emotions, urges, whims) I look at that and think, Good lord, just think for a minute before you speak/act. How hard can it be? So I can see how baffling people like myself can be to those who don't share these tendencies. I can see how they'd look at me and think, Good lord, stop ruminating and do something. How hard can it be?





    I think if you substituted 'change' for 'action' (price of action vs. benefit of action) that would cover most of this stuff. Taking action, or even thinking about taking action, can bring up intense feelings of helplessness, fear or self-doubt that the person would feel compelled to avoid. This is true whether the action results in change or not. And if any benefit resulting from action is perceived to be unlikely or small, it can seem as if it just isn't worth dealing with this pain.

    Depression can really affect these perceptions: fears become exaggerated, the effort required can seem overwhelming, and the sense of hopelessness can make you very pessimistic and unlikely to have much hope that your actions will benefit you. So it can increase the perceived price of action while decreasing the perceived benefit.
    Another great answer. It's difficult to try to stick up for deep psychological mindsets and personality traits that just- *are.* You do so quite well here. So what did it/would it take to bring you into a more "productive" state?
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  10. #50
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    I don't get the logic behind this.
    The fear of the unknown can be a big thing. Some people are content to remain in a bad situation because they can't imagine that doing things differently may improve the situation.

    And after reading wolfy's posts, I have to agree that some people let their failures define their identity.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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