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Thread: ADHD is BS...

  1. #21
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idioteque View Post
    Yes, I frequently had trouble starting and finishing essays for example, spent all the time in school just daydreaming and drawing in my books.. I noticed myself that I had extreme trouble concentrating, listening to the teachers etc. so I decided I wanted to contact a psychologist (or whatever they are). Talked to her and did the tests, turns out I had ADHD.. my dad has the same issues so I guess I got it from him.
    I am wondering how your dad coped with that distractability when there was probably not any such common diagnosis as ADHD or fix in his time?

    Many creative people (and IxxP) in particular are daydreamers. I am concerned however with the ADHD diagnosis. The H means hyperactivity and generally refers to loud boisterous kids who can't stay still rather than the daydreamers??? ADD I could understand but ADHD seems a bit of a stretch in your case.

    Yes, I often go into hyperfocus. Mostly when I listen to music, I try to notice all details, finding out how it's structured, thinking about what they had done to make that kind of noise.. it also happens when I read about stuff that provokes my curiousity. And yes, I lose track of time and get really frustrated if someone else interrupts.
    Your comments make me more inclined as an educator to look at different ways of teaching to engage that interest and potential with hyperfocus. Every person has a talent that they can manifest - I believe that we need to do better than we do in schools to identify those talents and the learning styles that work with kids with special talents who are currently diagnosed with ADHD/ADD.

    I believe that if we do this then every child could fulfil their potential and be happier with who they are and enjoy their differences instead of feeling like outcasts.

    Type wise, research shows that the three types most attracted to teaching (esfj, isfj & infj) all have J preferences, and therefore you could safely deduce that most classes would be predominantly run by those who value order above adaptability to situations. This is not the preferred learning style of SPs or NPs who appear to prefer to have a realtime application to their areas of interest or passion to absorb whatever they are learning.

    Schools like Montessori, Steiner, Home Schooling Networks and Sudbury Valley (sudval.org) are having amazing successes with this type of teaching and learning.

    Oh and about meds, I was thinking about taking those wich are effective over a 12 hour period, so that I can focus at work and then go chaotic in the nights
    Just make certain that you follow any safety instructions if you do choose to do the meds thing
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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  2. #22
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I am wondering how your dad coped with that distractability when there was probably not any such common diagnosis as ADHD or fix in his time?
    Statistically speaking, when unmedicated people of the older generations have neither suffered depressive episodes or anxiety disorders, nor developed a personality disorder, been to prison, had serious employment problems, failed or unsatisfactory marriages and troubled relations with others, serious or multiple accidents, unwanted pregancies, eating disorders, nor abused drugs (including drinking caffeine very excessively and smoking from a young age, but more serious forms too) to self-medicate, nor experienced other serious complications, they're very much in the minority. All of these things and more are highly elevated among adults with unmedicated AD/HD, to the extent that certain social problems would be slashed in numbers without them. In one in three childhood cases, the brain eventually catches up to sufficiently normal development that the adult is no longer directly impaired by AD/HD symptoms (and there is substantial evidence that the medication in childhood actually helps the brain to speed up in its development), but when adults retain the symptoms the consequences are usually severe and often dire to live through.

    Many creative people (and IxxP) in particular are daydreamers.
    Difference: it doesn't happen unwittingly and inappropriately often enough to cause significant impairment, and they notice that they're daydreaming quickly enough to stop themselves if and when necessary. And there are differences cognitively as well (between people we here define as 'Ps' and people with AD/HD of any 'type'). E.g. deficits in working memory capacity, processing speed, impulse inhibition. These are not problems defined as 'Perceiving' traits, although MBTI results are probably confounded by them.

    I am concerned however with the ADHD diagnosis. The H means hyperactivity and generally refers to loud boisterous kids who can't stay still rather than the daydreamers??? ADD I could understand but ADHD seems a bit of a stretch in your case.
    There is no such diagnosis as ADD anymore and there hasn't been for some years. There is only the diagnosis of AD/HD now, split into three subtypes, two of which include hyperactivity that often, but not always, fades enough to become clinically insignificant by adulthood. While the brains of people with the three subtypes share some of the same abnormalities, differences have been found to exist in the thalamus between those with hyperactivity and those without. With respect, if you don't know that I'm worried about other ways in which your knowledge is outdated, as a teacher. It's not your fault, at least you know roughly what the symptoms actually are, which is more than can be said of many teachers in my country.

    I recommend starting with Dr. Barkley's work. The statistics he and others have gathered about what happens to people with unmedicated AD/HD (vs. those who are medicated consistently throughout childhood and adolescence) in terms of both the development of the brain and their quality of life would be a good starting point, because nothing will motivate you to look more deeply at the rest of the research than those will.

  3. #23
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    Statistically speaking, when unmedicated people of the older generations have neither suffered depressive episodes or anxiety disorders, nor been to prison, had serious employment problems, failed or unsatisfactory marriages and troubled relations with others, had serious or multiple accidents, had unwanted pregancies, eating disorders, abused drugs (including drinking caffeine very excessively and smoking from a young age, but more serious forms too) to self-medicate, nor experienced other serious complications, they're very much in the minority. All of these things and more are highly elevated among adults with unmedicated AD/HD, to the extent that certain social problems would be slashed in numbers without them. In one in three childhood cases, the brain eventually catches up to sufficiently normal development that the adult is no longer directly impaired by AD/HD symptoms (and there is substantial evidence that the medication in childhood actually helps the brain to speed up in its development), but when adults retain the symptoms the consequences are usually severe and often dire to live through.


    Difference: it doesn't happen unwittingly and inappropriately often enough to cause significant impairment, and they notice that they're daydreaming quickly enough to stop themselves if and when necessary. And there are differences cognitively as well (between people we here define as 'Ps' and people with AD/HD of any 'type'). E.g. deficits in working memory capacity, processing speed, impulse inhibition. These are not problems defined as 'Perceiving' traits, although MBTI results are probably confounded by them.


    There is no such diagnosis as ADD anymore and there hasn't been for some years. There is only the diagnosis of AD/HD now, split into three subtypes, two of which include clinically significant hyperactivity. While the brains of people with the three subtypes share some of the same abnormalities, differences have been found to exist in the thalamus between those with hyperactivity and those without. With respect, if you don't know that I'm worried about other ways in which your knowledge is outdated, as a teacher. It's not your fault, at least you know roughly what the symptoms actually are, which is more than can be said of many teachers in my country.

    I recommend starting with Dr. Barkley's work. The statistics he and others have gathered about what happens to people with unmedicated AD/HD (vs. those who are medicated consistently throughout childhood and adolescence) in terms of both the development of the brain and their quality of life would be a good starting point, because nothing will motivate you to look more deeply at the rest of the research than those will.
    I find your comments very interesting and will look at Dr Barkley's work. I teach post secondary students in digital graphics, technology, typography and publication design.

    I have found that a reasonable proportion of the young people I have from high school have been at sometime diagnosed with AD/HD (thank you for pointing out the correct representation of this btw) Most paperwork I have coming through still lists the diagnosis as ADHD, albeit incorrectly now I gather?

    Many of those who are medicated claim that they have difficulties with their creativity since taking the medication. The interesting issue for me is my observation that many of these kids have an amazing aptitude for left brain/right brain balance work in the hybrid technology and arts.

    I still question whether this is indeed a disability or an environmental issue or whether it is evolution - much like the discussion on ASDs that has recently been going on at TC.

    Do you think nature in its evolutionary course makes an error of judgement of this magnitude?? Figures in recent years in Australia placed an estimate in the 20% range for incidence of AD/HD in the population. This is an enormous percentage of population to advise that they are dysfunctional and need medicating to fit into societies expected behavioural pattern??

    Dr Lucy Jo Palladino's book Dreamers, Discoverers and Dynamos (formerly The Edison Trait) makes some interesting observations on her treatment of children who had problems likely to be seen as AD/HD.

    Better understanding of the children's communication and learning styles by the parents, and subsequent changes in interaction between parents and children, with incredible positive results, make me wonder whether medication is really a panacea for people who cannot afford adequate psychological counselling and intervention???

    Indeed the works of the likes of Edward G. Hallowell, Thomas West and Thomas Armstrong PhD give me further pause to consider this line of thought, as do Thom Hartmann's books - ADHD a Different Perception and The Edison Gene in particular.

    What are your thoughts on this?
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

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    Just this week, at the ripe old age of 30, I have been diagnosed with ADD (or if you prefer, ADHD+PI). In doing research into the condition, especially as it relates to people in my specific circumstances, what strikes the most is not the extent to which it is OVER-diagnosed, but the extent in which it is completely under-diagnosed in certain demographic groups. This is largely due to the misunderstanding of Hyperactivity, which some say is really better explained as mental hyperactivity, not just physical hyperactivity. I have no doubt that this type of disorder is easily overlooked because the way in which it presents generally does not present in a way that is distracting for other people. Physically hyperactive children can cause disturbances in their classroom, which is going to attract scrutiny. Mentally hyperactive children may seem like perfect angels, sitting still and paying rapt attention, but in fact their minds are going a mile a minute, unable to focus on whatever it is they're supposed to be. It's also worth noting that ADHD+PI, which stands for "predominantly inattentive" is much more common in girls than the other types.

    In my case, because I have always been successful academically, everyone I discussed ADHD with was extremely skeptical. It wasn't until I presented the research on predominantly inattentive ADHD and its effects on girls and women that my mom the skeptic started to believe. Now she's actually examining her own life and my father's to see if there's a genetic explanation. Personally, I think that each of them exhibits some symptoms, but not enough to fully qualify. Yet somehow the combination of their genetic material was enough to put me well over the edge. Lucky me.

  5. #25
    Member Talisyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Words of Ivory View Post
    It's not bullshit, it's just over-diagnosed.

    It is a condition, but the problem from from the fact that hack doctors from all over the world are constantly diagnosing every single kid that isn't motivated and interested in their school education as suffering from it, so much so that its use as a medical term has become redundant.
    ABSOLUTELY!
    I don't think I bought into it before I became a teacher and had my own classroom. But there are students who ARE NOT like the other students. I have had over active talkers, kids who were up and moving around, kids with lots of energy, but they do not compare to the child who cannot control their impulses to do these whatsoever. In appears like they are driven, like there is a little switch they cannot turn of no matter how hard they try. I don't think its a personality type, in fact I think in some cases it obscures their personality. One student in particular was a bright boy with a lot to share, but couldn't hold on for more than one thought for 5 seconds.

    Yes, it IS over-diagnosed.
    And there are more cases of it now than in the past, must like autism... so the question is how are we causing it?
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  6. #26
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    Just this week, at the ripe old age of 30, I have been diagnosed with ADD (or if you prefer, ADHD+PI). In doing research into the condition, especially as it relates to people in my specific circumstances, what strikes the most is not the extent to which it is OVER-diagnosed, but the extent in which it is completely under-diagnosed in certain demographic groups. This is largely due to the misunderstanding of Hyperactivity, which some say is really better explained as mental hyperactivity, not just physical hyperactivity. I have no doubt that this type of disorder is easily overlooked because the way in which it presents generally does not present in a way that is distracting for other people. Physically hyperactive children can cause disturbances in their classroom, which is going to attract scrutiny. Mentally hyperactive children may seem like perfect angels, sitting still and paying rapt attention, but in fact their minds are going a mile a minute, unable to focus on whatever it is they're supposed to be. It's also worth noting that ADHD+PI, which stands for "predominantly inattentive" is much more common in girls than the other types.

    In my case, because I have always been successful academically, everyone I discussed ADHD with was extremely skeptical. It wasn't until I presented the research on predominantly inattentive ADHD and its effects on girls and women that my mom the skeptic started to believe. Now she's actually examining her own life and my father's to see if there's a genetic explanation. Personally, I think that each of them exhibits some symptoms, but not enough to fully qualify. Yet somehow the combination of their genetic material was enough to put me well over the edge. Lucky me.
    Thanks for that eclare

    In your research did you determine if there was a way other than medication that would draw the attention of those with predominantly inattentive ADHD?

    If you would prefer I can PM you because it is very much an interest of mine given the training/teaching I do, and how we can better meet the needs of the students with this aptitude.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

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    In appears like they are driven, like there is a little switch they cannot turn of no matter how hard they try.
    Yes...this is exactly right. It was incredibly frustrating because no matter what I did, I could not get myself to focus properly on my work, and it was causing serious problems. It was as if I had no control over what my brain did - which is pretty much what happens, since it is an impairment of executive functions.

    In your research did you determine if there was a way other than medication that would draw the attention of those with predominantly inattentive ADHD?
    I have to admit that I have not yet looked into that. This has all happened somewhat quickly, and I was impatient to feel better (heh- impatience, typical ADHD!). But I have been in therapy for other issues (depression and anxiety almost certainly caused by years of undiagnosed ADHD), and I noticed that in therapy I kept expressing my frustration with my life and myself. It felt like I knew exactly what I should be doing in order to get my life together, but there was this glass wall keeping me from doing those things. Anyway, I do plan to look into behavioral/environmental changes that might help, but my intuition tells me that these types of changes are probably more effective for still-developing children than already-set-in-their-ways adults.

    so the question is how are we causing it?
    I think that a major factor at play has to be the sheer number of distractions that we have at our disposal these days. The only time in my life that I managed to actually focus on what I was doing and not procrastinate was while I was studying abroad in South Africa. With no TV, no Internet, limited pleasure reading choices, and the stress of living in a completely over-stimulating foreign environment, the opportunity to hide in my room and do my homework was a blessing.

    Schools like Montessori, Steiner, Home Schooling Networks and Sudbury Valley (sudval.org) are having amazing successes with this type of teaching and learning.
    Interestingly, Montessori has been a disaster for my 9 year-old ADHD+PI nephew. There were simply too many options for him to focus on any one thing. He's switching schools this year to a program that is more tailored to his needs.

  8. #28
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    Yes...this is exactly right. It was incredibly frustrating because no matter what I did, I could not get myself to focus properly on my work, and it was causing serious problems. It was as if I had no control over what my brain did - which is pretty much what happens, since it is an impairment of executive functions.



    I have to admit that I have not yet looked into that. This has all happened somewhat quickly, and I was impatient to feel better (heh- impatience, typical ADHD!). But I have been in therapy for other issues (depression and anxiety almost certainly caused by years of undiagnosed ADHD), and I noticed that in therapy I kept expressing my frustration with my life and myself. It felt like I knew exactly what I should be doing in order to get my life together, but there was this glass wall keeping me from doing those things. Anyway, I do plan to look into behavioral/environmental changes that might help, but my intuition tells me that these types of changes are probably more effective for still-developing children than already-set-in-their-ways adults.


    I think that a major factor at play has to be the sheer number of distractions that we have at our disposal these days. The only time in my life that I managed to actually focus on what I was doing and not procrastinate was while I was studying abroad in South Africa. With no TV, no Internet, limited pleasure reading choices, and the stress of living in a completely over-stimulating foreign environment, the opportunity to hide in my room and do my homework was a blessing.


    Interestingly, Montessori has been a disaster for my 9 year-old ADHD+PI nephew. There were simply too many options for him to focus on any one thing. He's switching schools this year to a program that is more tailored to his needs.
    I have to finish my prep for an online course in 8hrs but you may want to read some of the authors I listed - mostly psychiatrists and psychologists - can give you a broader perspective for your own research.

    Edward G. Hallowell, Thomas West and Thomas Armstrong PhD as well as Dr Lucy-Jo Palladino and Thom Hartmann's The Edison Gene and ADHD a Different Perception

    Have a great day - I eventually intend to get some sleep before my session tomorrow morning
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
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    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  9. #29
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclare View Post
    Personally, I think that each of them exhibits some symptoms, but not enough to fully qualify. Yet somehow the combination of their genetic material was enough to put me well over the edge. Lucky me.
    This is very common. It's the same with my mum (who's a raging ISFJ by the way), she does some of the inattentive things I do more often than most people and less often than I do, but she functions just fine and it hasn't made her fail at anything she's capable of in every other way or find anything too stressful and difficult that shouldn't be. Non-AD/HD family members of people with AD/HD share many of the neurological features, except one, the smaller cerebellum. For some reason, the cerebellum is underdeveloped only in those people who meet the criteria. It's a fascinating puzzle.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=273Os74Rtw4"]Dr Barkley on family members[/YOUTUBE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by compulsiverambler View Post
    This is very common. It's the same with my mum (who's a raging ISFJ by the way), she does some of the inattentive things I do more often than most people and less often than I do, but she functions just fine and it hasn't made her fail at anything she's capable of in every other way or find anything too stressful and difficult that shouldn't be. Non-AD/HD family members of people with AD/HD share many of the neurological features, except one, the smaller cerebellum. For some reason, the cerebellum is underdeveloped only in those people who meet the criteria. It's a fascinating puzzle.

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=273Os74Rtw4"]Dr Barkley on family members[/YOUTUBE]


    Fascinating. Thanks for the video. When I managed to find a few spare moments I will be interested to watch the whole series.

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