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  1. #11
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    This is one of the main reason why many people dislike me in real life. (since I am pretty critical and I give off negative vibe)

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    When positive action keeps us from recognizing the facts, it is counterproductive. When it motivates us to take action and rally the efforts of others, it is useful.

    AO: if your criticisms are based in objective fact and accompanied by helpful suggestions, or especially questions (e.g. "Have you considered . . . ?) you may receive better reactions. On the other hand, some people cannot handle criticism, however constructive or kindly delivered.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 06-21-2010 at 09:57 PM. Reason: fixed typo

  3. #13
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Default A Characterization of Positive Thinking

    This isn't a critique, this is a characterization of "positive thinking" as self-delusion. This is fine insofar as "The Secret" and the whole notion that positive thinking somehow magically (or magnetically or quantum mechanically) makes things work out: such notions are, indeed, silly.

    It neglects the reason positive thinking is often given as advice: people need it. Yes, you need skills and experience, not just positive thinking, to get a job. But there are lots of people with the former, but not the latter, and for those people, it is actually true that "all they need" is positive thinking.

    I'm sure that, yes, the speaker, if confronted with this criticism, would agree with my point, more or less, but I doubt she'd take the criticism to heart. She speaks as one who resents "positive thinking" for causing people to make stupid decisions, for not being realistic. Positive thinking isn't delusional, per se: people are delusional or not, positively or negatively. There's nothing especially more realistic about negative self-delusion.

    The point of positive thinking is that when one is thinking realistically, one needs to think in terms of what one can do, not only what one cannot do. If someone is giving you the advice to think positively, the advice is not intended to tell you to "pretend it will all be OK," but rather to get up and take action rather than letting negative thoughts cripple you into inaction.

  4. #14
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This isn't a critique, this is a characterization of "positive thinking" as self-delusion. This is fine insofar as "The Secret" and the whole notion that positive thinking somehow magically (or magnetically or quantum mechanically) makes things work out: such notions are, indeed, silly.

    It neglects the reason positive thinking is often given as advice: people need it. Yes, you need skills and experience, not just positive thinking, to get a job. But there are lots of people with the former, but not the latter, and for those people, it is actually true that "all they need" is positive thinking.

    I'm sure that, yes, the speaker, if confronted with this criticism, would agree with my point, more or less, but I doubt she'd take the criticism to heart. She speaks as one who resents "positive thinking" for causing people to make stupid decisions, for not being realistic. Positive thinking isn't delusional, per se: people are delusional or not, positively or negatively. There's nothing especially more realistic about negative self-delusion.

    The point of positive thinking is that when one is thinking realistically, one needs to think in terms of what one can do, not only what one cannot do. If someone is giving you the advice to think positively, the advice is not intended to tell you to "pretend it will all be OK," but rather to get up and take action rather than letting negative thoughts cripple you into inaction.
    Of course within a very limited parameter, an individual could accept all the limitations arond them, adapt themselves to them, work very hard, hope for quite a bit of luck, and they might always stay in work etc. But there will always be many who do this, who don't get any such reward.

    For example mass unemployment is a real problem. There is much less employment on offer than people who need to work. Wages are going down, people are getting poorer, and having to work longer for less money, less stability, less rights, and a lower (if at all) pension at the end.

    The point she was makign was that this won't be solved by a positive attitude. A few individuals may be able to adapt better than others -so what? The fundamental problems can only be solved by collective action. The idoelogy of "positive thinking" is what the capitalist media proposes as its alternative solution to collective action.

    This doesn't mean that one should not have a positive attitude, rather she is opposing the argument that thoughts alone can overcome material limitations - a truly metaphysical idea.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  5. #15
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    that kind of reminds me of an episode of Wife Swap I watched a while back where the wife in question was a self help guru and the family she was placed with had an unemployed dad... she kept telling him "think positively and a job will come to you!" and he kept griping that he had tried that for a good while and it didn't work, so he was just going to work his ass off until he found a job
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #16
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    The only thing that positive thinking does it to help us to be more opportunistic towards the goals we set for ourselves. Anything outside of that is trying to slip one past you.

    Goal: million dollars
    bad positive thinking vs good positive thinking

    bad: I will sit and meditate and attract money towards me.
    good: I will prepare my mind to find opportunities towards my goal

    bad: Entrusting the universe to supply you with your goal
    good: Entrusting yourself to supply you with your goal

    bad: poor mindset
    good: rich mindset

    bad: the secret
    good: think and grow rich

    bad: shifting responsibility to the universe
    good: shifting responsibility to yourself

    bad: positive psychology as a religion
    good: positive psychology as a tool

    bad: driven by intentions
    good: driven by results

    refs:
    All of the Bernard Pivot Questionnaire answers from 'Inside the Actor's Studio'

    http://www.richdadwisdom.com/2010/04...le-class-rich/
    book: The Millionaire Next Door
    Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich
    Money poll: How well-off Americans think - Oct. 10, 2002
    Rich People VS. Poor People (How they think?) | CA2020: Create Abundance Business Community
    Steven Covey's 7 Habits of Effective People
    Brian Tracey's Eat that Frog
    Brian Tracey on youtube
    Kaizen Principle/lean manufacturing
    "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds; it is something one creates." - Thomas Szasz

  7. #17
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    It's not about 'positive' it's about 'active' and 'efficient' thinking.
    What works works.
    Anything else just shows the person's intellectual limitations and/or strong zones of proficiency (so efficiency in that case and perhaps high relative cost and low incentives to change the strategy/tactics/frame)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #18
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Default

    I loved this video. I have watched this woman speak on youtube before and really connected with what she said. Also the cartoon was fantastic.

    I have always found this 'positive thinking' talk extremely galling. When people start lecturing me about this stuff I actually become rather angry. And for some reason I become intentionally contrary and deseprately want to be as negative and unpleasant as possible. Maybe its because I can't stand anyone lecturing me about what I should think or feel, especially when they back it up with psuedo-scientific, hoodoo bullsh*t.

    I certainly do believe having a good attitude is very important to get by in life but I don't think it can magically solves all your problems. It is particularly disturbing how this is ideology is used to excuse, if not justify, the willful neglect and disregard of the poor and disadvantaged. It is merely a variation on the Victoria attitude that they somehow the poor deserve their meager lot and the ruling classes merit their wealth and power over them.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that's an issue that I always find incredibly annoying... and to top it off I used to work in a sales office where we got slapped in the face with a "if you beleive it, it'll happen" ideal every fucking day

    not to mention that the man is a total beleiver in it and tends to tell me that I should just think positively every time a job lead doesn't pan out

    Fuck that... I've been pretty rediculously optimistic about the world and humanity since I could first SPEAK and am constantly disappointed and surprised because bad things keep happening... therefore I think that it's all bullshit that's just designed to make people feel better about the world and themselves
    Ugh. What a nightmare. That crappy sales discourse they try to brainwash people with completely drives me up the friggin wall. I don't know anyone can STAND more than 5 minutes of it. You clearly have a greater forbearance than me. What really bugs me about it is how the basically drub into people that their entire self-worth as a human being is directly related to how much they sell. If you don't sell it means you are somehow defective and worthless and basically you might as well kill yourself.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #19
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile The Lucky Country

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    somehow the poor deserve their meager lot and the ruling classes merit their wealth and power over them.
    Yes, it is a variation of the doctrine of predestination where wealth is proof of God's favour.

    Yes, it is the doctrine of Puritanism, the ideology which founded a whole country and is now taken for granted.

    Of course we were not founded by Puritanism. We were founded by the Enlightenment and seek the greatest good for the greatest number.

    This why we are called the Lucky Country.

  10. #20
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    This was quite good.
    My personal version of positive thinking is to accept negativity in a positive light. People tend to either dwell on negativity or brush it under the rug to commence positivity. I've survived and advised on embracing and assessing bad situations, but recognizing that they provide experience and knowledge for future endeavors.
    Positive thinking shouldn't be feigned, it should be attained. The illusion of shiny, happy faces isn't what needs to be attained, because it is only an illusion.

    Cartoonist love fest- Vader references and Bush's White House la la land.
    Hang on traveling woman - Don't sacrifice your plan
    Cause it will come back to you - Before you lose it on the man


    .:: DWTWD ::.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


    2011 TypeC Exercise Challenge - My Weekly Goals: Cardio 4x. Yoga/Pilates 1x. Pushups 70.

    There is this thing keeping everyone's lungs and lips locked - It is called fear and it's seeing a great renaissance

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