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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chooi View Post
    Hahaha, I lol'd. John Nash is an interesting example, though. One that kind of refutes schizophrenia as being totally chemical/biolgical. First of all, I don't think that Nash actually hallucinated (not sure though). But the movie definitely exaggerated his illness. Anyways, didn't he just become "unschizophrenic" with time, possibly after a working out of his "confusion"?

    His son is also schizo so there is something to be said about that.
    I'm related to him, no shit, he's my maternal grandfather's cousin, and YES mental illness runs in that branch of my family. The movie didn't exaggerate his illness, but did romanticize it and make him seem much cooler than he actually was apparently. Of course I report this as second hand news, things that my older relatives have told my mother.

    Oh, and no, he didn't become "unschizophrenic"...it's just at the time that he became ill there were not the advances in psychiatric medicine that we have today, and so schizophrenics were much less functional at that time.

  2. #62
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chooi View Post
    This still bothers me a bit. I'm sure you would be a more proficient pianist or whatever, but would you be more creative? And I still feel as if there's plenty of people who attempt and want to improve, and practice at it, but still cannot cross a certain barrier. That's like saying with 10,000 hours of practice I could dunk on Lebron.
    Someone with natural proficiency can certanily improve it with practice, but I don't think that's related to creativity, per se; often the most technically proficient in their chosen fields are not particularly gifted innovaters and vice versa... Some kind of basic grounding is needed to have the foundation on which talent can build, and hard work may be needed to realise it: but it's simply not the case that repetitive practice and talent are interlinked.

    While we're on the subject of music, I can think of several great composers who were not able to make the grade as a performer despite a sound musical education, which is what gave them the necessary grounding in compositional ability. Sibelius, for instance, was simply not good enough to be a top professional violinist despite aspiring to it and putting intensive effort into learning the violin. He therefore turned aside from performance and eventually found his true vocation in composition. He later said himself of his own violin playing: "My talent for the violin is only as much as any relatively musical person and not much more!"
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  3. #63
    Senior Member chooi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm related to him, no shit, he's my maternal grandfather's cousin, and YES mental illness runs in that branch of my family. The movie didn't exaggerate his illness, but did romanticize it and make him seem much cooler than he actually was apparently. Of course I report this as second hand news, things that my older relatives have told my mother.
    Whooaaa, kewl. So are you saying that he did hallucinate, but not as extravagantly as the movie portrayed? What did your family think of the movie?

  4. #64
    Senior Member chooi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Someone with natural proficiency can certanily improve it with practice, but I don't think that's related to creativity, per se; often the most technically proficient in their chosen fields are not particularly gifted innovaters and vice versa... Some kind of basic grounding is needed to have the foundation on which talent can build, and hard work may be needed to realise it: but it's simply not the case that repetitive practice and talent are interlinked.
    I agree with you raga. I was responding to Victor's argument that anyone could become a mozart with 10,000 hours of practice. I think your proficiency would increase, but not necessarily your creativity.

    I feel like just as you would be limited in your athleticism (with the Lebron example) so you would be with creativity and other kinds of talent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chooi View Post
    Whooaaa, kewl. So are you saying that he did hallucinate, but not as extravagantly as the movie portrayed? What did your family think of the movie?
    My relatives who actually knew him hated the movie, including my grandfather. I have never met him. He is like my fourth cousin twice removed or something ridiculous like that. I can only gauge by family members who also suffer from the illness (and their symptoms were strikingly similar to one another) that, yes, he most assuredly hallucinated. Hallucinations are one of the hallmarks of schizophrenic and schizoaffective-bipolar illness, anyway.

    Of course a movie is going romanticize things. They want to make mental illness seem "cool" (it's not, it's very disturbing and sad to be around unmedicated schizophrenics, and they become quite dependent upon the care of others when they are in a bad state) when it's linked to a very interesting or intelligent person.

    I do know that the illness took his ability to do math away from him in some regard, so it clearly was not beneficial to his natural talents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    If this was true, Victor, by your own logic you'd be a brilliantly convincing debater by now, wouldn't you?

  7. #67
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I do know that the illness took his ability to do math away from him in some regard, so it clearly was not beneficial to his natural talents.
    Oh, the illness, certainly not. I was thinking of it the other way around myself - that the same traits which drove him to become ill may have helped, when he was more functional, to enhance his imaginative faculties.

    My elder brother was supposedly highly mathematically gifted; I met someone who'd taught him maths at school who said that he ""Was the most naturally gifted mathematician I'd ever met." this despite the fact that he was never in the conventional sense a very good student. But I never really saw this, as he suffered a psychotic breakdown within a few weeks of going into university, and was diagnosed as schizophrenic soon after. He spent the rest of his life drugged up to the eyeballs, undergoing various treatment including electroconvulsant therapy (he actually wanted this, he thought it would make him better).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Oh, the illness, certainly not. I was thinking of it the other way around myself - that the same traits which drove him to become ill may have helped, when he was more functional, to enhance his imaginative faculties.
    Possibly. I have mixed feelings about mental illness and the way that it is treated. On one hand it must be treated in a manner to allow the person to be functional and not tortured. Schizophrenia can outright torture a person - it's not like happy la la land, which is what some people seem to think. On the other hand, people who suffer from bipolar disorder report being more creative when unmedicated, and I do know that a rather shocking numbers of writers suffered from what is or what was probably what we now call bipolar disorder.


    My elder brother was supposedly highly mathematically gifted; I met someone who'd taught him maths at school who said that he ""Was the most naturally gifted mathematician I'd ever met." this despite the fact that he was never in the conventional sense a very good student. But I never really saw this, as he suffered a psychotic breakdown within a few weeks of going into university, and was diagnosed as schizophrenic soon after. He spent the rest of his life drugged up to the eyeballs, undergoing various treatment including electroconvulsant therapy (he actually wanted this, he thought it would make him better).
    I'm very sorry your brother went through this.

    As I say, there must be different ways to treat mental illness than simply sedating people to the point of where they lose all personality, and there has been great progress in terms of the medications in the past 20 to 25 years, including vitamins and nutrition - something called orthomolecular therapy - used to treat schizophrenia which allows people to maintain their personality instead of merely being tranquilized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Oh, the illness, certainly not. I was thinking of it the other way around myself - that the same traits which drove him to become ill may have helped, when he was more functional, to enhance his imaginative faculties.
    SS is actually reading a book right now on genius and mental illness.

    John Nash is one of several geniuses on the cover.

    I was flipping through it the other day, and found a quote from him that goes something akin to, "Well, the reason I believed it was perfectly reasonable the I was indeed sent to Earth by an alien force to save it from itself was due to the fact that such thoughts came to me from the exact same place as my thoughts on mathematics."

    Found that pretty interesting...

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    On one hand it must be treated in a manner to allow the person to be functional and not tortured. Schizophrenia can outright torture a person - it's not like happy la la land, which is what some people seem to think.
    Yes, schizophrenia is not the slightest bit Romantic. Schizophrenics do suffer from schizophrenia and torture is not too strong a word.

    Whereas the hallmark of creativity is flow where time seems to stop and we do things entirely for their own sake. A little bit of heaven, you might say, in the quotidian world.

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