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  1. #1
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Default standards of other people

    im pretty clueless about the subject, so i thought id write about it.

    i may not know what kind of behavior/how you do things is ok for other people, for example when i was working and someone told me to do something i was really unsure about what kind of quality was expected for the job, how much time i should be using for doing the task and how much time i should use for single thing(more time used -> better quality) if there is many things to do in the task etc. also i was pretty much all the time worried about if i am a good worker, since i was pretty clueless about if i work by the standards of boss. it wasnt like i thought i was a crappy worker and i had to do my best all the time, i was just unsure if i meet the expectations of the boss so i tried to look reasonably good or atleast descent worker in his eyes(and i pretty much suck at this too). i didnt do any ass kissing or stuff like that, but tried to look like im working hard.

    generally speaking, i may not know what kind of interaction(and what i can say) is allowed with new people. im afraid that i cross some boundaries that i know is there, but i cant see where they are. and afraid that if i cross some boundary he or she may back off and since i wont know what boundary i crossed i wont understand why s/he is taking distance and this will get me to be even more careful with his or hers boundaries. the weird thing about this is that i know that i should just act freely like myself and people would most likely like me more, but if i let go i feel like i need to let go fully or i start to analyze too much again and if i let go fully i would scare most people away in a second. also i have a tendency to not act if im not sure how to act(this effects pretty much every time im unsure about anything), that and starting to analyze everything too much leads me to shut up and not do much around new people. i hate this because i cant get to know people much and if i have a romantic interest to someone, this fear is multiplied by thousand. and the most frustrating thing about this is that i feel like i can make pretty good observations about people and kind of get to know them in some levels pretty well, but they wont know me nearly at all or they will have distorted view about me(and this is also something im bit paranoid about).

    when im drunk enough i can let go easier, but i need to be really drunk so i will act like an idiot many times. usually i meet new people when i am drunk(in parties etc) and i might only see them when im drunk for some time. im afraid that this will give false image of me to others, since im usually either pretty quiet, i dont sosialize much with new people, if im drunk enough to let go of this analyzing i wont be able to connect in intellectual levels much(not to mention that humor may not be easy to produce). so when i do interact with new people i might come off very differently than i act around old friends.

    also i have hard time of knowing when i should start talking in a group and when i finally see a good spot to say what i was thinking about it, the subject has most likely changed its course and i will be unsure if i should say it anymore or not and since i dont act easily when im unsure about something i will most likely not say the thing i wanted to. im not afraid that people would think that my words are no good or anything like that, its just that i have hard time vocalizing my thoughts especially if there is much going on that i need to perceive about their conversation and i kind of feel like the conversation is theirs and i might cross some kind of boundary with what i say. and all the time i got this feeling that i should say something, but i just dont know how to say what i want to say in this situation. after a while of being quiet in a group i start to think what they think of me for just standing there quiet and or even introducing himself well.

    this is why i like to have few good friends who i can fart, burb and say fucked up things that would cause a heart attack to weaker people with as much as i can.

    i dont have like really big problem with this and this might sound bigger than it actually is(just saying so that you wont get false image of me or this issue ). but sometimes like when meeting new girls that seem fun, this frustrates me quite alot. this not knowing if i know how to say things right even bothers me now since im not sure if the topic for this post is right, but since i know that just should not give a fuck i will post this with the original topic title anyway

    can anyone relate or have something to say about this?

  2. #2
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    you need a healthy dose of Fe
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    you need a healthy dose of Fe
    yea my Fe totally sucks most the time, but its able to work reasonable in some situations if my Ti wont get in the way(and it usually does)

  4. #4
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    im pretty clueless about the subject, so i thought id write about it.

    i may not know what kind of behavior/how you do things is ok for other people, for example when i was working and someone told me to do something i was really unsure about what kind of quality was expected for the job, how much time i should be using for doing the task and how much time i should use for single thing(more time used -> better quality) if there is many things to do in the task etc. also i was pretty much all the time worried about if i am a good worker, since i was pretty clueless about if i work by the standards of boss. it wasnt like i thought i was a crappy worker and i had to do my best all the time, i was just unsure if i meet the expectations of the boss so i tried to look reasonably good or atleast descent worker in his eyes(and i pretty much suck at this too). i didnt do any ass kissing or stuff like that, but tried to look like im working hard.
    This is a problem for me on new jobs/tasks. I have trouble when given general guidelines for things, because I need standards to be specific. I don't know what others expect, so if left to my own devices I will make sure my work is done to mine. I'll ask some questions that are designed to make others' expectations precise, but I will not ask too many, as too many questions gives the impression of incompetence.

    generally speaking, i may not know what kind of interaction(and what i can say) is allowed with new people. im afraid that i cross some boundaries that i know is there, but i cant see where they are. and afraid that if i cross some boundary he or she may back off and since i wont know what boundary i crossed i wont understand why s/he is taking distance and this will get me to be even more careful with his or hers boundaries. the weird thing about this is that i know that i should just act freely like myself and people would most likely like me more, but if i let go i feel like i need to let go fully or i start to analyze too much again and if i let go fully i would scare most people away in a second. also i have a tendency to not act if im not sure how to act(this effects pretty much every time im unsure about anything), that and starting to analyze everything too much leads me to shut up and not do much around new people. i hate this because i cant get to know people much and if i have a romantic interest to someone, this fear is multiplied by thousand. and the most frustrating thing about this is that i feel like i can make pretty good observations about people and kind of get to know them in some levels pretty well, but they wont know me nearly at all or they will have distorted view about me(and this is also something im bit paranoid about).
    This continues to be a very big problem for me. I have an awful sense of when to pump the brakes, or when to hit the accelerator, in terms of how one interacts with others, appropriateness, and where common or individual boundaries are. This is both in friendships and in romantic relationships. Because there are feelings and other such intricacies involved in romantic relationships, we tend to analyze even more, and exacerbate the problem. It’s bizarre: what my mind tells me about someone is precisely the kind of information that is useless in terms of facilitating connection.

    You say that you feel like you should act freely like yourself, and you can: you’re just going to have to deal with the fact that the net you’re casting is not one that’s going to snag tons of people, but you will know that whenever you do catch somebody while acting like yourself, you can be sure that person will most likely be worth it. Let’s face it, we’re INTPs. We’re weird dudes.

    I know I have alienated people and sabotaged a lot of relationships because of this problem. Not knowing when to stop, crossing lines, or not pushing hard enough or “putting myself out there.” Hell, I’ve even done it on this forum. But, the only thing that’s going to help you is, unfortunately and painfully, just keeping at it if that’s what you want. I waved goodbye to such a skillset a long time ago. I’m lucky that my need for such relationships is low.

    when im drunk enough i can let go easier, but i need to be really drunk so i will act like an idiot many times. usually i meet new people when i am drunk(in parties etc) and i might only see them when im drunk for some time. im afraid that this will give false image of me to others, since im usually either pretty quiet, i dont sosialize much with new people, if im drunk enough to let go of this analyzing i wont be able to connect in intellectual levels much(not to mention that humor may not be easy to produce). so when i do interact with new people i might come off very differently than i act around old friends.
    Alcohol always helps takes the edge off sometimes, but not always in a good way. Drinking does not make us ENTPs, unfortunately. And you’re right, people will not see the real you. And unless you’re just going to have a group of friends where you’re drunk around them all the time, it’s not the answer.

    also i have hard time of knowing when i should start talking in a group and when i finally see a good spot to say what i was thinking about it, the subject has most likely changed its course and i will be unsure if i should say it anymore or not and since i dont act easily when im unsure about something i will most likely not say the thing i wanted to. im not afraid that people would think that my words are no good or anything like that, its just that i have hard time vocalizing my thoughts especially if there is much going on that i need to perceive about their conversation and i kind of feel like the conversation is theirs and i might cross some kind of boundary with what i say. and all the time i got this feeling that i should say something, but i just dont know how to say what i want to say in this situation. after a while of being quiet in a group i start to think what they think of me for just standing there quiet and or even introducing himself well.
    This, for me, varies from group to group that I’m a part of. What I am good at is quickly sizing up group roles and figuring out what mine will be. Am I going to be a talker in this group or largely a perceiver? Are the other dominant personalities in the group that I am going to end up deferring to? Much like you, I have a hard time making my presence felt in such social situations. Unfortunately, the answer to this is still, keep at it, and start with smaller groups. Don’t be afraid to interject. If they’re you friends, they’re not going to all of a sudden hate you. At least that’s what I tell myself.



  5. #5
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I don't think I have very good "Fe", but I'll hear someone out if they have a specific process to follow. I let them show me.. and then, when they've left....I do it that way for awhile....slowly (d)evolving later on into my own far far better way (except I kind of peek around just in case they're looking..and imitate the right way... and then I go back again to what's better.

  6. #6
    Member Flutterby's Avatar
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    Hey INTP. I can't quite work out how to quote so I'll put your words in italics:

    i may not know what kind of behavior/how you do things is ok for other people, for example when i was working and someone told me to do something i was really unsure about what kind of quality was expected for the job, how much time i should be using for doing the task and how much time i should use for single thing(more time used -> better quality) if there is many things to do in the task etc. also i was pretty much all the time worried about if i am a good worker, since i was pretty clueless about if i work by the standards of boss. it wasnt like i thought i was a crappy worker and i had to do my best all the time, i was just unsure if i meet the expectations of the boss so i tried to look reasonably good or atleast descent worker in his eyes(and i pretty much suck at this too). i didnt do any ass kissing or stuff like that, but tried to look like im working hard.

    I also have this problem, but I'm working out how to turn my hobby into a part time business so that I can work towards working for myself. In the past I was always afraid that only rich people could do this, but lately I've been hearing a lot about people who started out getting paid for their hobbies and then gradually turned their paid hobbies into a full time business. Often times people will complain that I lack 'initiative' but I actually just feel like they expect me to be mind readers.

    generally speaking, i may not know what kind of interaction(and what i can say) is allowed with new people. im afraid that i cross some boundaries that i know is there, but i cant see where they are. and afraid that if i cross some boundary he or she may back off and since i wont know what boundary i crossed i wont understand why s/he is taking distance and this will get me to be even more careful with his or hers boundaries. the weird thing about this is that i know that i should just act freely like myself and people would most likely like me more, but if i let go i feel like i need to let go fully or i start to analyze too much again and if i let go fully i would scare most people away in a second. also i have a tendency to not act if im not sure how to act(this effects pretty much every time im unsure about anything), that and starting to analyze everything too much leads me to shut up and not do much around new people. i hate this because i cant get to know people much and if i have a romantic interest to someone, this fear is multiplied by thousand. and the most frustrating thing about this is that i feel like i can make pretty good observations about people and kind of get to know them in some levels pretty well, but they wont know me nearly at all or they will have distorted view about me(and this is also something im bit paranoid about).

    I don't necessarily think being unsure of a stranger's boudaries is a bad thing in and of itself. Maybe if you turn the attention away from yourself at first by asking them open ended questions about themselves they will hopefully open up because people supposedly love to talk about themselves. If you can ask them about a shared interest so much the better, but the only example of this type of question I can think of atm is 'Tell me all about yourself' only maybe that's a little too open ended, lol. I guess it's worth a try anyway if you're stuck for ideas.

    also i have hard time of knowing when i should start talking in a group and when i finally see a good spot to say what i was thinking about it, the subject has most likely changed its course and i will be unsure if i should say it anymore or not and since i dont act easily when im unsure about something i will most likely not say the thing i wanted to. im not afraid that people would think that my words are no good or anything like that, its just that i have hard time vocalizing my thoughts especially if there is much going on that i need to perceive about their conversation and i kind of feel like the conversation is theirs and i might cross some kind of boundary with what i say. and all the time i got this feeling that i should say something, but i just dont know how to say what i want to say in this situation. after a while of being quiet in a group i start to think what they think of me for just standing there quiet and or even introducing himself well.

    I personally overcome this by avoiding large groups and just focusing on one person or a couple of people. If I was at a large party I would just find a quiet person I could talk to rather than trying to do something I'm not good at.

    but sometimes like when meeting new girls that seem fun, this frustrates me quite alot. this not knowing if i know how to say things right even bothers me now since im not sure if the topic for this post is right, but since i know that just should not give a fuck i will post this with the original topic title anyway

    I'm not sure how you're meeting the girls, but if you deliberately join a group that shares your interest talking to any girls you meet will be easier, hope that helps.

  7. #7
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    @jock

    what does this mean?
    what my mind tells me about someone is precisely the kind of information that is useless in terms of facilitating connection.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    @jock

    what does this mean?
    i can totally relate, so maybe i can answer also. for example i can see if the person has a good heart and this doesent really help much if you want to find something to discuss about. would be pretty stupid if i would be like, so you got a good heart or you seem to be unable to concentrate on a task very well since your mind seems to wander around all the time..

    @ others ill write something later since i got other stuff to do now

  9. #9
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i can totally relate, so maybe i can answer also. for example i can see if the person has a good heart and this doesent really help much if you want to find something to discuss about. would be pretty stupid if i would be like, so you got a good heart or you seem to be unable to concentrate on a task very well since your mind seems to wander around all the time..
    So, knowing your audience is not important to the way you tailor your message? Not meant as a harsh criticism. Just curious
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

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  10. #10
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i may not know what kind of behavior/how you do things is ok for other people, for example when i was working and someone told me to do something i was really unsure about what kind of quality was expected for the job, how much time i should be using for doing the task and how much time i should use for single thing(more time used -> better quality) if there is many things to do in the task etc. also i was pretty much all the time worried about if i am a good worker, since i was pretty clueless about if i work by the standards of boss. it wasnt like i thought i was a crappy worker and i had to do my best all the time, i was just unsure if i meet the expectations of the boss so i tried to look reasonably good or atleast descent worker in his eyes(and i pretty much suck at this too). i didnt do any ass kissing or stuff like that, but tried to look like im working hard.
    Are you relatively new at your job? If my boss gives me something to work on, I often will just ask "when do you want this done?" or "how much time should I spend on this?" Also asking in general whether there anything I can be doing to do a better job.

    As for general interpersonal interactions, I have a couple friends whom I trust that I can ask about certain situations where I have a sense that maybe something is not appropriate, like whether it's okay to ask "was it on purpose?" when I find out a friend and her husband are going to have a baby (answer: probably not, but it could be okay, since the friend is married and since we know one another pretty well). Or I will just double check with my sister if an outfit is appropriate for a particular setting.

    I do know what you mean though. I feel like there are these invisible rules and I will sometimes find myself unaware of them until I break one of them.

    It used to be a lot worse when I was younger, but now I'm getting more of a sense of it. Like you say, it's not a huge deal, but I do notice it from time to time, and find myself checking in with people who have more of an inherent sense of these things.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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