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  1. #41
    Member Himself's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I'm quite familiar with this topic from the perspective of suffers of anxiety, OCD, depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder. The people I know who take any meds for these things need them. I am saying that there are way too many people with little shit wrong in their lives trying to fix them with SSRIs/other psych meds, instead of just getting their shit together.
    I'd agree with you on that. But when you wrote things the first section I quoted in my previous post, it raised my hackles a bit, so to speak, because it resembled a lot of the misinformed sentiments I've heard from people who really know nothing about depression. It seemed to me that you were espousing a sort of, "SSRIs-are-a-crutch-for-the-weak, 'depressed'-people-should-just-buck-up-and-remember-they've-got-it-good-because-they're-not-starving-in-Africa" viewpoint, dismissive of the phenomenon overall. It seems I misunderstood you. My apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Yeah, you're not suppose to go off heroine suddenly either. Read below:

    "Physical dependence refers to a state resulting from chronic use of a drug that has produced tolerance [1] and where negative physical symptoms[2] of withdrawal result from abrupt discontinuation or dosage reduction.[3] Physical dependence can develop from low-dose therapeutic use of certain medications as well as misuse of recreational drugs such as alcohol. The higher the dose used typically the worse the physical dependence and thus the worse the withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms can last days, weeks or months or occasionally longer and will vary according to the dose, the type of drug used and the individual person.[4]"

    Physical dependence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Cessation of chronic use of SSRIS, which are DRUGS, causes negative physical symptoms, because of the user's TOLERANCE to SSRIs synthetically regulating the level of serotonin in their bodies.
    There are a couple of problems with what you've said here.

    First of all, by referring to heroin, you run the risk of conflating substance dependence with physiological dependence. They're similar, to be sure, but they're distinct. See the DSM-IV definition for the former (bolding mine):

    Quote Originally Posted by DSM-IV
    "When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. This, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders...."
    Second, the very article you quoted actually goes on to list a number of substances that cause physical dependence -- things like alcohol, nicotine, and opioids, which we can all agree can be or are "addictive" in the colloquial sense. Note that while benzodiazepenes are listed, neither SSRIs nor SNRIs are. In fact, the next section goes on to say,

    Quote Originally Posted by Physical dependence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    SSRI drugs, which have an important use as antidepressants, are not considered to cause physical dependence, but it's generally accepted that they cause a discontinuation syndrome.
    I was alluding to SSRI discontinuation syndrome when I referred to the so-called "brain zaps" in my previous post. You might call that splitting hairs, but the scientific community at large recognizes a distinction between SSRI discontinuation syndrome and addiction in the "conventional" sense, and unless/until new findings emerge to suggest that extended use of antidepressants of this class do in fact result in phenomena closer to the "conventional" definition of addiction, I see no reason to conflate the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I'm sorry you had to deal with a major depression, I had one too a few years ago, it really sucked, but I took SSRIs for 2 days and then flushed the rest. IMHO, they are garbage. If they work for you, then cheers.
    I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you. I'm glad you were able to cope without them. Given the massive degree of cognitive dysfunction I was experiencing before I went on the meds, I can't imagine doing what you did myself, but I'm glad you overcame it regardless. I should also note that my therapist has played a tremendously important role in addressing the underlying issues at stake and helping me improve in the long run. She's been absolutely amazing.
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  2. #42
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Here's a similiar article in the New York Times from a couple of months ago, which I really liked (and pretty much completely agreed with): Depression’s Upside.

    From the article:

    The point is the woman was depressed for a reason; her pain was about something. While the drugs made her feel better, no real progress was ever made. Thomson’s skepticism about antidepressants is bolstered by recent studies questioning their benefits, at least for patients with moderate depression. Consider a 2005 paper led by Steven Hollon, a psychologist at Vanderbilt University: he found that people on antidepressants had a 76 percent chance of relapse within a year when the drugs were discontinued. In contrast, patients given a form of cognitive talk therapy had a relapse rate of 31 percent. And Hollon’s data aren’t unusual: several studies found that patients treated with medication were approximately twice as likely to relapse as patients treated with cognitive behavior therapy. “The high relapse rate suggests that the drugs aren’t really solving anything,” Thomson says. “In fact, they seem to be interfering with the solution, so that patients are discouraged from dealing with their problems. We end up having to keep people on the drugs forever. It was as if these people have a bodily infection, and modern psychiatry is just treating their fever.”
    The challenge, of course, is persuading people to accept their misery, to embrace the tonic of despair. To say that depression has a purpose or that sadness makes us smarter says nothing about its awfulness. A fever, after all, might have benefits, but we still take pills to make it go away. This is the paradox of evolution: even if our pain is useful, the urge to escape from the pain remains the most powerful instinct of all.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member ObliviousExistence's Avatar
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    “you can't pour new wine into old wineskins"

  4. #44
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Just because something's an adaptation, doesn't mean that it isn't a problem.

    Srsly.

    Know that big exam yeu took in high school where yeur mind just totally went blank with fear? That's because yeur body is adapted to treat all sources of fear/panic the same, which cuts out yeur capacity to think, reason, or remember, and focuses on fast reflexes to escape danger. Yeu can't escape a test/exam though, so yeu just sit there with yeur mind blank. I realized this long ago and was able to avoid such.

    Depression can cripple peoples' ability to do anything, and in some severe cases, can kill them. Having had dealt with such through quite a few friends, and having more than my share of issues leading to excessive stress, I can state that it does have some rather nasty ramifications.

    If yeu get depressed, symptoms usually include apathy, being tired, hopelessness, helplessness, and several other things that generally inhibit any form of action, especially change.

    I don't see how this would be particularly useful in making someone change the situation they're in.

    On the other hand, I'm also against the whole "throw pills at everything yeu see!" mentality we've gotten ourselves into >.<

    Especially since many antidepressants have the nasty side effect of INCREASING the risk of severe depression and/or suicide for a short term, before they take full effect into the body, which can take as long as several weeks in some cases.

    However, the fact that depression exists means something is wrong, either an imbalance in brain chemistry, situations affecting yeu, or whotever. It's a warning sign like pain or fear that yeu need to do something fast.

    Problem is, the symptoms of it suck enough that it's difficult to change whot yeu CAN change if depressed, and if yeu're stuck with stuff that yeu have no control over, or only partial/limited control, then yeu are pretty much just going to be depressed with no benefit from such.

    Yeu have to keep in mind that we are animals. We are built, not with finances, relationships, and other intelligent things in mind... we're built to evade predators and to feed, procreate, and so on. Most of the functions of the body are streamlined and designed towards those ends. When we throw modern day complexities into the mix, the body doesn't know how to react, really. It just does its' best guess, and alot of the time, its' initial reaction SUCKS.

    It's like... if yeu're diabetic and are low on sugar, yeu loose appetite and become lethargic/apathetic, which can mean that the very process which's supposed to tell yeu "Yeur brain is damaged do something about it stupid" can actually be the thing that prevents yeu from doing anything about it.

    Same goes with depression; it usually ends up backfiring these days, because the stresses we have that cause depression don't really work out too well with the method by which it tries to tell yeu something is wrong.

    Maybe it was useful awhile ago, but it doesn't do much to help with change these days... it may tell yeu that there's a problem, but then it actively works against yeur ability to fix that problem. That's not a very useful reaction.

    If yeu're on antidepressants, then yeu already KNOW yeu're depressed, which's about the limit of whot it's good for, which's just telling yeu something's wrong is all.


    They dwell on a complex problem, breaking it down into smaller components, which are considered one at a time.
    Often very, very, very inaccurate. In many cases, the depressed person will dwell on it... but rather than breaking it into smaller components, the depression itself will often magnify the problem, making it seem larger than it really is, causing paralysis of action, or preventing rational thought from occurring, instead just focusing on how hopeless it is, which restricts the ability to correct it.

    Some cases may differ, but any time I've seen depression, it's never done whot they suggest there.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I am not saying depression should never be treated. But by assuming it is a disease that needs to be cured, and by turning to pills to do so, we are ensuring the viscious cycle be perpetuated.

    What do you think? What are your feelings about functioning people being put on 'low dose' antidepressants?
    Depression is not a benefit in disguise! Whatever benefit gained distorts life...and a distorted life limits prosperity and happiness.

    While certainly its an indicator that something is causing this, serotonin uptake isn't the answer. When people believe it to be so then they are mislead, like a placebo effect would. You are propped up only to be given a greater fall later in life. The irony instead of having the time to research the real reason behind what is happening people think they are sorted...

    I found this interesting reading on Serotonin


    If you would believe the overwhelming advertisements of the pharmaceutical companies, you would think that serotonin primarily regulates mood. In fact, serotonin regulates a lot of other activities in the brain and body. In 1948, Maurice Rapport, a haematologist, found that serotonin tended to make blood form clots, and it tended to be a muscle- as well as a vasoconstrictor. Next to be a muscle- and vasoconstrictor, serotonin plays an important role in sleep, appetite, memory, aggression, sexual behaviour, cardiovascular activity, respiratory activity, motor output, sensory and neuroendocrine function, but most important, perception!

    They assume that low serotonin levels could be a possible cause of endogenous depression, but it's still just a theory and not a proven fact! New research present us a different view on serotonin, which may not even have that connection with mood as previously thought. By experimental research, scientists discovered that a new drug, code-named MK-869, blocked a neuropeptide called " Substance P." By blocking this neuropeptide, people became less depressed. An interesting fact was, that blocking substance P did not affect the function of serotonin! This raises new concerns about the involvement of serotonin in mood and/or depression.
    "But why do I hear people talking about benefits from these SSRI-AntiDepressants?"
    They surely must work somehow don't they?" The answer is yes, they "work" somehow, but not in a very proper way. The mechanism of action on serotonergic neurons implies a lot of other neuro- endocrine responses. What actually happens when you increase serotonergic neuronal activity or elevate your serotonin levels is this: the stress hormones "Cortisol" & "Adrenaline" (Epinephrine) in the brain and body are triggered by increased serotonergic activity or elevated serotonin levels. It is a natural reaction from the body to combat the excessive serotonin levels. These released hormones, cortisol and adrenaline, are secreted from the "Adrenal Glands." They give the human personality a boost, producing a euphoric state, which can last for a prolonged period of time. In this manner SSRI-AntiDepressants initially produce the deceptive results the doctor and "patient" are both expecting.

    If a patient continues to ingest a particular SSRI-antidepressant over a prolonged period of time, eventually the bodies Adrenal Glands may lose their efficiency and "Adrenal Exhaustion Syndrome" will be the end result.
    Furthermore, a study developed by D. Jezova & R. Duncko, Laboratory of Pharmacological Neuroendocrinology, demonstrated that repeated SSRI-antidepressant treatment in healthy men does not inhibit, but enhances stress-induced pituitary hormone release (neuroendocrine activation). Cortisol levels failed to be modified by antidepressants. A simple search through available PubMed articles uncovers clearly that SSRI-antidepressants not only fail to modify cortisol, but actually stimulate/increase cortisol release.

    Initially the rise in cortisol & adrenaline (secreted from the Adrenal Glands) may create the illusion of a patient making progress in his/her situation, but a potential tragedy may be surfacing very soon. It is very well known that (SSRI-AntiDepressant induced) increased cortisol secretion can lead to violent suicidal behaviour.
    The neurohormone Melatonin & the Endocrine System
    One of the neurotransmitters secreted by the Pineal Gland is Melatonin, also known as N-Acetyl-5-Methoxy-Tryptamine (NA-5-MT). In the Pineal Gland, serotonin converts into melatonin by enzymatic interaction. Melatonin is also an important hormone to the body, that's why it is called a neurohormone. It is necessary to regulate the function of all organs of the Endocrine System in the body. The organs or glands of the endocrine system are: the Pituitary Gland, situated in the brain; the Thyroid + Parathyroid Glands; the Thymus; the Pancreas; the Ovaries/Testes (see image). All of these endocrine organs/glands secrete their hormones to the blood. The Pituitary Gland stimulates the secretion of these hormones, while the Pineal Gland apply the brakes on them through it's neurohormone melatonin. If the endocrine organs/glands release too much of their hormones, for instance when we are stressed, then the Pineal Gland releases melatonin to counteract these hormones. Also serotonin gets released when stress is involved. The increased serotonin triggers the release of adrenaline, which allows the body to work through the stress.

    The Pineal Gland is a magneto sensitive organ, what means that it is sensitive to electromagnetic fields (EMF). It is sensitive to electromagnetic waves from computer monitors, cellular phones, microwave ovens, high voltage lines, etc.. Electromagnetic fields suppress the activity of the Pineal Gland and reduce melatonin production. EMF also affect serotonin.

  6. #46
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I was on Zoloft for a while...I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I felt fuzzy and slow like I was walking through cotton candy. My thoughts slowed down. I was a zombie. It really didn't help the situation, eh?
    I'm a big ruminator. The key is you want to stop the rumination, at least in my case, because it seriously doesn't help any situation if I'm locked up in my head with no relief. I know, that to stop depression, I have to keep moving forward, get out, seek more stimulation than the thoughts in my head. I haven't got it right, but medication is the last option for me. I tried a few others as well....I just stop sleeping on all of them, and I want to sleep. Sleep is better IMHO. My thoughts finally stop in that state, my subcounsciousness processes everything, and often I'm in a better state when I indulge that need/want for a while. Rest, good...staying up because I'm in a slightly ssri induced manic state, bad. Throwing a spanner in the thought processes works really well too, as does talking (not all the time though). If I have leave/money a holiday works wonders too, but just getting out my routine helps as well.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #47
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Yes. Insomnia and depression create a negative feedback loop:



    (Copied from Understanding Depression)

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself
    As someone who's suffered from depression, I think it's important to for people unfamiliar with the condition to recognize that it is -- at least in my own view -- a form of cognitive malfunction. There is an enormous qualitative difference between the nebulous "depression" the public has in mind, and depression itself. It surprises me that, given the prevalence of depression and related mood disorders in the United States, the most people know about depression comes from ads for antidepressants. There's a strikingly minimal amount of information presented in those ads, and most never go further to learn about it. (I know I didn't, until I became depressed.)
    The general public's ignorance is rarely a surprise to me. What is more problematic is that these theories are supported by some in the psychiatric community and become influential. (Although anyone who confuses paradox with purpose and pens the words "embrace the tonic of despair" clearly has some cognitive malfunction of their own.)

    The criticism leveled against orthodox medicine: that the approach is often to suppress the body's own defense mechanisms and interfere with the natural process of healing, is a sound one. But sometimes, as in the case of autoimmune diseases, it is the defense mechanism itself which is malfunctioning. The body attacks itself. Depression is more like an autoimmune disease than a fever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse
    serotonin uptake isn't the answer. When people believe it to be so then they are mislead, like a placebo effect would.
    I tend to agree. The fact is, our understanding of normal brain function is so limited that even the people who manufacture and prescribe anti-depressant drugs don't fully understand their effects. For that reason, and because of the wide-ranging side-effects, I wouldn't advise anyone to take them lightly. In fact, there is little evidence that they are efficacious in mild to moderate cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Depression is not a benefit in disguise! Whatever benefit gained distorts life...and a distorted life limits prosperity and happiness.

    While certainly its an indicator that something is causing this, serotonin uptake isn't the answer. When people believe it to be so then they are mislead, like a placebo effect would. You are propped up only to be given a greater fall later in life. The irony instead of having the time to research the real reason behind what is happening people think they are sorted...

    I found this interesting reading on Serotonin
    That is very interesting..The stuff on Serotonin.

    A few months ago I was taking St John's Wort.

    It did help with my depression.. But it did so by killing all of my feelings. It's not like it made me happy. I felt nothing, I slept more than I ever slept in my entire life. My dreams were twisted and nightmarish. I was always thristy. Had no intrest in anything sexual (there are/were other reasons for that.. But this was different) SO I eventually decided I would rather be depressed and feeling something than feeling nothing at all.
    And I did slowly sink into depression again after I stopped. And This week I have suffered from insomnia for the frist time in months, possibly even a year.
    But it's OK because I feel other stuff too. My dreams are normal "I'm a fuck up" kind of dreams.

    And depression has been extremely beneficial for me. I have uncovered so much and discovered so many new possibilities that despite the somewhat crippling effects short term, The payoff has been and will be worth it all.
    If it shakes your whole foundation , changes your perception and you grow as a human being. How can it not be benefical??

  9. #49
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nancynobullets View Post
    The OP's post seems highly related to Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration.
    BAD ASS POST! :nice

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    I'd agree with you on that. But when you wrote things the first section I quoted in my previous post, it raised my hackles a bit, so to speak, because it resembled a lot of the misinformed sentiments I've heard from people who really know nothing about depression. It seemed to me that you were espousing a sort of, "SSRIs-are-a-crutch-for-the-weak, 'depressed'-people-should-just-buck-up-and-remember-they've-got-it-good-because-they're-not-starving-in-Africa" viewpoint, dismissive of the phenomenon overall. It seems I misunderstood you. My apologies.
    No sweat, I am quite blunt, and often misunderstood for a heartless asshole, no apology necessary!

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    There are a couple of problems with what you've said here.

    First of all, by referring to heroin, you run the risk of conflating substance dependence with physiological dependence. They're similar, to be sure, but they're distinct. See the DSM-IV definition for the former (bolding mine):
    Honestly, the only difference I see between them is the motivation to imbibe the substance in question. Another ancillary difference is the legality of the use of such items, ala obtaining them from a drug dealer, or an MD (a legally licenses drug dealer, LOL!). I don't want you to think I lump people using SSRIs into the same category as heroin addicts, I am just generalizing that both will experience physical withdrawal and associated discomfort with cessation of the use of either, and that I think the medical community (e.g. Pfizer, AMA, etc.) has wrongfully villified benzodiazepines, and decietfully extolled the virtues of SSRIs, making them aapear "all benefit, and no risk", which I think is bullshit. I am a big advocate of patient's rights. I think people should have a choice of what they treat themselves with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    Second, the very article you quoted actually goes on to list a number of substances that cause physical dependence -- things like alcohol, nicotine, and opioids, which we can all agree can be or are "addictive" in the colloquial sense. Note that while benzodiazepenes are listed, neither SSRIs nor SNRIs are.
    I see what you are saying, I understand that, I am just saying that the writers of that passage have an ulterior motive, and that is to spike Rx company profits under the guise of reducing the distribution of substances that have some recreational value. I call bullshit on that.

    I have had a Xanax prescription for 10 years. I told my doctor of my insomnia when I was 26, and asked for Xanax, as my Mother has the same issue with insomnia, and Xanax works for her. My MD said "No, that stuff is addictive, I'll give you Ambien instead." I told him I didn't care what I was prescribed as long as it helped me sleep. I took 1/2 an Ambien and that night, and woke up with my uvula swollen to the size of my tongue, choking me as it was hitting my gag reflex. My wife drove me to teh ER and they shot me up with adrenaline and benadryl. They told me I was on my way to being dead if I didn't come there. My MD showed up and said "Well, it looks like you earned your Xanax prescription." I told him not to worry about dependency issues, as if I wanted to abuse anything I'd simply walk over the wrong side of town and look for it, like anyone else would. Why would I go to my doctor to ask for medication to help me sleep if I wanted to be a doped up zombie? He laughed and agreed I had a point, but said he was just following protocal and "best practices."

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    I was alluding to SSRI discontinuation syndrome when I referred to the so-called "brain zaps" in my previous post. You might call that splitting hairs,
    Yup! But it's ok, we can see this issue a little differently and still be on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    but the scientific community at large recognizes a distinction between SSRI discontinuation syndrome and addiction in the "conventional" sense, and unless/until new findings emerge to suggest that extended use of antidepressants of this class do in fact result in phenomena closer to the "conventional" definition of addiction, I see no reason to conflate the two.
    One is socially acceptable, the other is not, people experienceing both phenomena are suffering as a result of cessation of use of chemicals intended to change their psychological functioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    I appreciate the sentiment. Thank you.
    You're more than welcome. I've seen some real suffering in people very dear to me, and wish for no one to have to deal with it, so when I hear of folks who have, they have my empathy. I'm human too, Bro!

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    I'm glad you were able to cope without them. Given the massive degree of cognitive dysfunction I was experiencing before I went on the meds, I can't imagine doing what you did myself, but I'm glad you overcame it regardless.
    Thanks! Actually, I HAD to cope without them. Lexapro fucked my brain up bad. I felt liek a zombie. I layed by the pool for an entire day and couldn't remember shit I thought about. Plus, it killed my libido, and I would rather die than live without that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himself View Post
    I should also note that my therapist has played a tremendously important role in addressing the underlying issues at stake and helping me improve in the long run. She's been absolutely amazing.
    BINGO. My therapist is a bad ass. He's a PhD Chemist who got bored in the lab and became a psychologist. He's also a strong thinking type, I think possibly and ENTJ. He's the only person that was able to get me to realize that I was emotionally retarded, and thus unable to function as I could not make any signifacnt decisions "with my feelings" and I was going through some really heavy shit at the time, and trying to solve the problems by deciding what to with my life by crunching the issues into spreadsheets and performing sensitivity analysis by changing the weight of each aspect of my situation. I was also very angry with my life, despite it being successful in many ways, it was very unfulflling in others, and I knew I could not live like that any longer, as I resented my daily existence, despite it being good, and that was ridiculous and disconcerting.

    Cheers to you, Sir!

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Here's a similiar article in the New York Times from a couple of months ago, which I really liked (and pretty much completely agreed with): Depression’s Upside.

    From the article:
    Awesome. I will read this.
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  10. #50
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    lucky people who get depressed for a reason that CAN be treated I'm quite jealous

    of course, antidepressants suck... I tried a few a few years ago and all succeeded in preventing me from sleeping, making me nauseus and making me feel the need to eat the brains of others For those they work for and make them functional though, I have no problem if they use them!

    I really can't see an upside in constantly feeling guilty with no reason, feeling absolutley dispaired and wondering how best to die so that your family gets your life insurance money though
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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