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  1. #11
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think it's beneficial like pain. Pain tells us something is wrong so that we try to remove ourselves from whatever is causing the damage. Anti-depressants can be like a person keeping their hand on a hot stove and popping OxyContin because of the pain. Sometimes, though, a person's pain perception can get messed up or the pain is not something that can be removed, so that is what pain medicine is for, and antidepressants are for the emotional equivalent of that, IMO. And also for for temporary situations in while waiting to be fixed in extreme cases like major emotional trauma.
    Yes. Pain is adaptive because a failure to feel pain could result in serious injury and/or death. I don't see how depression is adaptive in this way and haven't yet read anything to convince me otherwise. And if someone is in a lot of pain, telling them it's for their own good because evolution planned it that way is pretty callous, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Yes. Pain is adaptive because a failure to feel pain could result in serious injury and/or death. I don't see how depression is adaptive in this way and haven't yet read anything to convince me otherwise. And if someone is in a lot of pain, telling them it's for their own good because evolution planned it that way is pretty callous, IMO.
    It can be a warning sign that they need to do something different, just like pain is.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It can be a warning sign that they need to do something different, just like pain is.
    It can be. But just as pain has many causes: trauma, infection, chronic disease, childbirth etc, so does depression. And almost all pain management involves analgesics, not ruminating about how much pain you're in. That's just masochism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    It can be. But just as pain has many causes: trauma, infection, chronic disease, childbirth etc, so does depression. And almost all pain management involves analgesics, not ruminating about how much pain you're in. That's just masochism.
    I don't think anyone has recommended anything of the kind. It's not about ruminating about how much pain you're in, it's about attempting to determine if there is a cause and if maybe there is something you can do about your situation. Sometimes the only thing you can do is treat the pain, but sometimes you can remove the cause of the pain. Analgesics serve an important purpose, but if all you do is pop pain killers without attempting to determine the cause, you're probably not going to get the best results.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I've used it for short periods before. I doubt it's actually done anything but I like to think maybe it has. In fact I'm calling my Dr. this week to get some magic pills. Srsly.

    Oh, I think clinical depression can be different from situational depression. Not sure which one they are talking about. My magic pills would be for situational and/or hormonal depression.

  6. #16
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    It can be. But just as pain has many causes: trauma, infection, chronic disease, childbirth etc, so does depression. And almost all pain management involves analgesics, not ruminating about how much pain you're in. That's just masochism.

    This doesn't really take into consideration just how much we have learned to avoid pain over our lifetime, because we don't remember how much learning we do in this regard as babies and toddlers. The pain analogy must be kept in context. In fact, it's interesting Cafe brought up the analogy because Edward Hagen does as well, a noted evolutionary psychologist who studies depression in his research.

    Ed Hagen: To claim a depression is a part like that, it’s something like vision or motor control or physical pain. It’s a claim that in particular circumstances, experiencing depression would have actually helped you in some way, it would have increased your likelihood of surviving and reproducing. The idea’s very much analogous to thinking that physical pain is not an illness, physical pain is something that actually helps us, it identifies problems that we have to address and circumstances that we have to avoid. Similarly nausea, a very distressing state to be sure, has utility. It’s something that despite it’s very uncomfortable nature helps us and it helps us of course by expelling toxins from the body. But only in those particular circumstances, it would not be helpful obviously to experience nausea all the time but only when you’ve in fact ingested something toxic. So I’m claiming in particular situations depression might actually help you out.
    Because pain is so unpleasant, it's likely that once we've experienced its devastating effects, we won't repeat the causal action. Just as once depression is overcome, we likely will take care to rework our lives to avoid the same situations that caused it. However, it's easy to see that if we don't enter the 'rumination' period, and take meds to avoid depression, we might not get uncomfortable enough to consider making changes to avoid it, which actually in the end can create more problems.


    Furthermore, to say something common is detrimental without exploring it fully, is ungood.
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  7. #17
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Oh, I think clinical depression can be different from situational depression. Not sure which one they are talking about.
    true... I can see how situational depression can be adaptive, but I can't see how clinical depression could be an adaptive mechanism... or for that matter bipolar depression

    Either of the later seems like evolution really f%^&ed up
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #18
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think anyone has recommended anything of the kind. It's not about ruminating about how much pain you're in, it's about attempting to determine if there is a cause and if maybe there is something you can do about your situation. Sometimes the only thing you can do is treat the pain, but sometimes you can remove the cause of the pain. Analgesics serve an important purpose, but if all you do is pop pain killers without attempting to determine the cause, you're probably not going to get the best results.
    That's exactly what the article is proposing: Depression is "adaptive" and not an illness to be medicated away. There seems to be some confusion between introspection and true depression. Feeling blue because you are experiencing problems of one kind or another isn't depression, it's just life. It doesn't become a mood disorder unless it is disproportionate to circumstances. Anyone who has been depressed will tell you that the one thing it doesn't do is help you to think more clearly. How can this be an adaptive response to assist problem-solving?
    I do agree that medication is over-prescribed and should be a last resort. And that by making an intolerable situation tolerable, it is an ineffective sticky plaster. I just don't buy the "adaptive" argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry
    Because pain is so unpleasant, it's likely that once we've experienced its devastating effects, we won't repeat the causal action. Just as once depression is overcome, we likely will take care to rework our lives to avoid the same situations that caused it. However, it's easy to see that if we don't enter the 'rumination' period, and take meds to avoid depression, we might not get uncomfortable enough to consider making changes to avoid it, which actually in the end can create more problems.
    This is not how depression works. Long term, untreated depression actually damages the brain making further episodes both more likely and more devastating. Irrespective of a change in circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #19
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    Depression is there to tell us something in our life either sucks or is out of balance.

    I really wish the "Mental Dis-ease" industry would more so focus on teaching people steps to take toward "Mental Health."

    All those pills folks elect to take eventually end of in the water supply. So for those on city water, I highly recommend a filtration system.

  10. #20
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    ^ooh, that means my fish are on prozac.


    EDIT:
    that's the first common drug (related to this topic) that comes to mind. The water supply probably contains much worse though.

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