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  1. #1
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    Default Psychopathy - Nature or Nurture?

    YouTube - Psychopath - Psychopaths - Documentary - [part 4]

    YouTube - Psychopath - Psychopaths - Documentary - [part 5]

    Fascinating documentary which poses an ethical question: If the cause of psychopathy is discovered, should doctors be allowed to insert microchips into the brains of psychopaths to alter their personalities, if it would protect society?

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    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    What would be the other opinions? Sooting them? Putting them in prison forever? Sticking them all on St. Helena Island where they can only hurt each other? Pick the one you think is the least cruel or immoral.

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    Member Johnfloyd6675's Avatar
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    Psychopathy is an inherited, physiological condition that re-routes brain function away from "the very qualities required to live in harmony with society" and towards, instead, a predatory and inhumane consciousness in a human body. Those changes include running words like "hate" and "love" through the language centers, but not through emotional-processing programs, as is the neurotypical response. The psychopath amygdala is noted for utterly warping the meanings of emotions in the psychopath's experience, and indeed a great deal of evidence supports the claim that, because their amygdalas are fucked up, psychopaths cannot feel fear. Research indicates, predictably but importantly, that psychopaths learn primarily from rewards and not from consequences; this is the opposite of neurotypical operant conditioning.

    Psychopaths, in short, are very bad. I'm a self-righteous supporter of neurodiversity and believe that brain differences give even the least of us unique gifts; the amazing feats of autists, the staggering successes of Aspies, the contribution of nearly all canonical works of painting and literature by manic depressives. Each abnormal neurotype there has observed, researched gifts that we should celebrate.

    Psychopaths are just bad. They exist because evolution thinks it can get away with it. Psychopathy strips away every moral power in a human brain to make way for a subspecial suite of hunting gear. The three traits identified by that meta-analysis of sociopaths- impulsivity, fearlessness, and charm- show us in their dark allure the malice of the genotypic adaptation, allowing a psychopath to shoot guns at cops and expect to get away with it. The real technical upgrade in sociopathy, of course, is the elimination of empathy as a perceptual and also conceptual system and its replacement with powerful incentives in the reward systems.

    Here's how we'd handle this problem if this country had any spine. Teams of the sort of people you see in action movies go out across the country, searching through stolen psych records and internet sites "for psychopaths." When they identify a psycho, they grab him, drop him, keep the Hare Checklist on a clipboard as they run this portable fMRI they've got now for just this purpose (prisons need to know who's just been naughty, and who's got no soul) and run tests of empathic response on 'em. If you get a positive reading as a psychopath, Glock 19 from your jacket, and he never had a soul anyway. It'd be like Blade Runner. The FBI has nothing to do, they should obey this post. Call it Operation Food Chain. (We're at the top)

    The other option (given that psychopaths will likely continue to be alive) is to follow a plan not leading to their extinction as a taxon of Homo Sapiens. In general, I think we have better things to spend our money on than anything nice for psychopaths, but how expensive could it be to go all Soviet on them and make them shock troops in Afghanistan. All the talk about "cures" that I've heard involves protein manipulation and the paralymbic system, so when these researchers demand money and complain it's being spent on schiz., MD, etc. someone should hire Steve Jobs to tell him that we'll deliver the genetic pills on the same day we drop off the Neuron Firing Real-Time Monitor in a car that runs on Diet Coke and Mentos.

    And a "treatment" for psychopathy? Not a cure, but a treatment? This doesn't seem like quite the right sort of disease for treatments that do not cure. What're they gonna do once they're on the meds? Break the law at a slightly lower rate that makes the drug company look smart even though all it did was put a leash on a stray pit bull. Yeah, the lease means it can only eat people in an x-foot radius, but it also means that he's sanctioned to exist by the handler and her government. Meds for psychopathy would be the same way; "we're medicated," the debate would go. "Leave us alone." To which I'd have to reply, "yeah, but really the pills have just made you gain a lot of weight, I'm sure you guys still kill people, right? This is off the record." "Off the record? Yeah. Actually, I sold all my pills, said they were malaria medication, shipped em all to Africa for the year. I haven't gained weight; this is just a sumo suit with a secret compartment for my chainsaw." "I see. I was totally right. We shoulda rounded you guys up and shot you in the head. Instead we gave you Seroquel."

    because what woman in her right mind would see impulsive spontaneity, absolute fearlessness, and that charm, as attractive?

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    How would you determine someone is a psychopath empirically and objectively?

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    I see a lot of features in this world that would make psychos very successful. They will climb the ladder faster than the other people, and most likely they will do just fine as corporate leaders. What could be more convenient, a man without soul running a business without face? So, I don't think that most of them need to do anything that is considered evil...

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    Member Johnfloyd6675's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    How would you determine someone is a psychopath empirically and objectively?
    Hare Psychopathy Checklist - define, person, people, used, personality, score, traits, Definition, Purpose, Precautions, Description, Results

    I'd keep that on my clipboard while we wait for them to invent this:

    The Brain of a Psychopath: Using fMRI Technology to Detect Brain Abnormalities, Part I | Forensic Focus

    I'd wait for them to get it down to an iPhone app, which is about when they'll have flying cars and megacorporations, so yeah, it'll be Blade Runner.

    Or we could turn them into gladiators.

  7. #7
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    If we were to perform brain scans using latest technology, what's to say that a person's environmental conditions aren't a precursor? How does it work interchangeably? If genetics were the case, then how come we haven't found exact markers for them? If it's truly nature that shapes how we are, then isn't it all hopeless? Who's to say who should plant microchips? What's to say they won't fail and act in reverse?

    If we're talking about ethics, I think that we also need to question who has the rights or authority to tweak another human being's mind, and how will we know if their objective doesn't get out of hand and becomes a power trip? (Reminds me of Sci-Fi).

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I see a lot of features in this world that would make psychos very successful. They will climb the ladder faster than the other people, and most likely they will do just fine as corporate leaders. What could be more convenient, a man without soul running a business without face? So, I don't think that most of them need to do anything that is considered evil...
    Agreed. That's how they run business so efficiently. Even though soulless/unethical in that regard, some of them make it as successfully charming politicians, depending on whom they attract, and why. I think most people see through the bullshit, when it's obvious that the control tactic is based on fear, not reason. JMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    How would you determine someone is a psychopath empirically and objectively?
    Couldn't have said it any better!

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    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnfloyd6675 View Post

    BAD ASS POST...
    I love it. You are right. I'd much rather my tax dollars go to eliminating their sorry asses. Rehabilitating them is just as improbable of rehabilitating child molesters or serial rapists, it's not going to happen, and the consquences of them living among [unsuspecting] civilized people are devastating. I myself do not see the societal benefit of letting wolves live among the sheep.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I see a lot of features in this world that would make psychos very successful. They will climb the ladder faster than the other people, and most likely they will do just fine as corporate leaders.
    Hey Nolla. Your assumption bolded above is not valid. Corporate leaders must ultimately maintain profitability and the blessing of the firm's board of directors. A true psychopath is not likely to be open, truthful, or consistent enough to gain and maintain the favor of so many people, for an extended period of time. It's not how they operate. They are more private because they are deceitful, and darkness likes secrecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    What could be more convenient, a man without soul running a business without face? So, I don't think that most of them need to do anything that is considered evil...
    Although your statement above if poetically written, it is not consistent with the behaviors of "common" psychopaths. No one ever said that an individual that is a psychopath is intelligent. Some of them, many of them, maybe most of them, are defective people of average or sub-average intelligence. The redneck who causes his wife and neighbors great dismay, the guy down the road who hangs out with people only for a short stretch at a time as the friendships he spawns quickly result in some type of damage to people or property, these are the psychopaths most prevalent in the real world, the psychopath CEOs you envision are interesting conceptually, but I don't think their methods can survive the modern business landscape, especially if they must interact with several other intelligent, assertive people that are communicating with each other in addition to having to interact with the psychopath.

    Have you ever had to deal with a sociopath? I have. As a matter of fact I am right now. I have a restraining order against one. He is a fool, a reckless moron, but he is indeed fearless, and it is causing him a quick and expensive downfall, and trust me, I have had my own share of troubles dealing with him in an ethical manner through the court system. But I can assure you, this fellow is not a candidate for being a CEO, or a leader of any capacity. Some of them are just stupid, mean assholes. Don't glamorize their condition, it is hardly worthy of envy, it is actually pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    If we were to perform brain scans using latest technology, what's to say that a person's environmental conditions aren't a precursor? How does it work interchangeably? If genetics were the case, then how come we haven't found exact markers for them? If it's truly nature that shapes how we are, then isn't it all hopeless? Who's to say who should plant microchips? What's to say they won't fail and act in reverse?
    Maybe it doesn't matter if a psychopath was born that way, or if they experienced one or more life events that deformed the capacity of their amygdalas? A psychopath is a psychopath, right? If the fuckers are whacked out, violent, manipulative individuals and always will be, why does it matter what made them that way? What's more important is that they are one, and will always be one, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    If we're talking about ethics, I think that we also need to question who has the rights or authority to tweak another human being's mind, and how will we know if their objective doesn't get out of hand and becomes a power trip? (Reminds me of Sci-Fi).
    Well, pick your poison, let natural selection create a slew of psychopaths randomly distributed amongst the entire human race, and subject normal, peaceful people to having to deal with their bullshit, or at some point allow a psychopath-purging program to operate and risk that some people will be erroneously targeted and have to suffer the fate of the "real" psychos and have to go live with them on Anthrax island somewhere. Either option is laden with risks and benefits, the real question is wheter or not such a program will ever be implemented. I don't think it will because one of the unintended consequences of the human rights movement has been to create rights for people who are anything but human, like psychopaths.

    Quote Originally Posted by kiddykat View Post
    Agreed. That's how they run business so efficiently. Even though soulless/unethical in that regard, some of them make it as successfully charming politicians, depending on whom they attract, and why. I think most people see through the bullshit, when it's obvious that the control tactic is based on fear, not reason. JMHO.
    Most normal people do see through their bullshit, and avoid them, and then the psychos move on to manipulate the unfortunate ones who do not see through their bullshit before it is too late. Your assumption is right, only SOME of these types will ascend to positions of great power/influence, a minority of the total class, at best.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

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    The majority of psychopaths are rather harmless and widespread in society, so I don't see why they would be treated in any special way. They are overrepresented in criminals, true, but they are also overrepresented in some of the higher up jobs out there, and famously in lawyers as well.

    In general, judging based on actions is the sensible route, as there's no guarantee a psychopath will act antisocially, and there's no guarantee a non-psychopath will not. It's a similar case when comparing men to women, since men are far more likely to act antisocially, but still unlikely to do so.

    The traits behind diagnosing psychopathy come in degrees as well, so you'll be facing Sorites paradox when judging them.

    Antisocial disorders have always been the more dangerous case. They already get special treatment since they are quite obvious and more immediately threatening.

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    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    ^Damn good insights. If anyone can invent a reliable "violent and shitty people detector" I will be very impressed.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

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