Psychopathy - Nature or Nurture?

[cafe]

Those with Psychopathic Personality Disorder would not be able to function as a CEO because they are out of touch with reality.

However those with a Psychopathic Personality or a Narcissistic Personality are found among successful CEOs.

I don't think it's a great idea for those with Psychopathic Personalities to be in those positions.

I think that might actually have a lot to do with our current financial crisis. They are certainly not harmless in such positions of power -- in a utilitarian sense, they do more harm than serial killers. I suspect these are the kinds of people that decide a X wrongful death suits are cheaper than Y recall repairs and that set policies denying people life saving treatments based on profits.

 

[erm]

I think that might actually have a lot to do with our current financial crisis. They are certainly not harmless in such positions of power -- in a utilitarian sense, they do more harm than serial killers. I suspect these are the kinds of people that decide a X wrongful death suits are cheaper than Y recall repairs and that set policies denying people life saving treatments based on profits.

That's operating under the assumption they are harmful in general. One could as easily not make that assumption, and instead claim it is because their personalities are better suited to those positions. Either way evidence is needed.

I'd add that in virtually any position of great power you need some psychopathic tendencies, to make the hard decisions on a regular basis. Not that one need be a full psychopath.

:rolli: really people, use the updated psychological terminology- it's antisocial personality disorder!

That's a different disorder. A lot of psychopaths have APD, but not many of those with APD are psychopaths.

APD is a far better predictor of whether someone will commit crimes, act violently, lie etc.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

lack of nurture.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

What's with this exclusive choice here? What's so hard to undestand about dual inheritance?

Anyhow, the title also had surprisingly little to do with the OP.

If there were a way to be absolutely sure that someone was or wasn't a psychopath, and authority could be totally trusted with the power of life and death, then forget about microchips, I'd be in favor of liquidating psychopaths immediately.

But here in the real world, there are concerning questions about how one really knows that a person is a psychopath, and whether or not allowing harsh treatment of psychopaths would simply create a tool for severe abuse by corrupt authorities.

That's a different disorder. A lot of psychopaths have APD, but not many of those with APD are psychopaths.

APD is a far better predictor of whether someone will commit crimes, act violently, lie etc.

Well, it is fairly confusing, because psychopathy used to essentially mean what we call anti-social personality disorder now. That name was retired however. But even though the name was retired, the word psychopathy was kept and put to a new definition. So, there's a lot of room for mistakes there.

There are useful places for psychopaths in society except the mental hospitals and prisons. One of which are the top CEOs that seem to be hypocrites.

Hmmm.. I think of those as a major force for bad in the world, so I can't quite see your point.

 

[nolla]

Hey Nolla. Your assumption bolded above is not valid. Corporate leaders must ultimately maintain profitability and the blessing of the firm's board of directors. A true psychopath is not likely to be open, truthful, or consistent enough to gain and maintain the favor of so many people, for an extended period of time. It's not how they operate. They are more private because they are deceitful, and darkness likes secrecy.

I was thinking that it is easier for a psychopath to make choices that lead to productivity in the current system. People don't have to matter to them. They would just present the cold facts. "We kick out 1000 workers, we will gain 1 million dollars"

Although your statement above if poetically written, it is not consistent with the behaviors of "common" psychopaths. No one ever said that an individual that is a psychopath is intelligent. Some of them, many of them, maybe most of them, are defective people of average or sub-average intelligence. The redneck who causes his wife and neighbors great dismay, the guy down the road who hangs out with people only for a short stretch at a time as the friendships he spawns quickly result in some type of damage to people or property, these are the psychopaths most prevalent in the real world, the psychopath CEOs you envision are interesting conceptually, but I don't think their methods can survive the modern business landscape, especially if they must interact with several other intelligent, assertive people that are communicating with each other in addition to having to interact with the psychopath.

I would assume that intelligence and psychopathy are not linked in any way. There are the dumb ones and the smart ones. But I am only guessing, I don't have any data.

That's operating under the assumption they are harmful in general. One could as easily not make that assumption, and instead claim it is because their personalities are better suited to those positions. Either way evidence is needed.

I'd add that in virtually any position of great power you need some psychopathic tendencies, to make the hard decisions on a regular basis. Not that one need be a full psychopath.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. A regular person might not even WANT to be a CEO because the decisions he would have to make seem immoral and anti-human. So, if you have a job that requires people to forget about their empathy and play by the numbers, knowingly cause trouble to other people, there is a greater chance that psychopaths will be found there.

I must add that my ideas about this come from some experiences in work. Some of the bosses I've worked with seemed to me slightly twisted. I could see why they made the choices but I could also see the negative impact the firm would get through annoyed workers. It seemed to me they could not get the concept at all. They might not be psychopaths, I doubt that they were, but still there was something unemphatic in their personalities that made it obvious to them it was always more reasonable to have their own way, to play by the numbers. It actually seemed like they would have preferred to work in a larger organization, so that they didn't have to see the inconvenient people all the time... The ivory tower would be perfect for them.

 

[Johnfloyd6675]

did you jut go all good will hunting all over this post or what? ha...i love it.

Haha, no, I'm just an ENTP. I've got a lot of family in Southie, though and I think some of them might just be psychopaths. How dyou like them apples?

Also, Good Will Hunting has the best soundtrack of all films past, present, and future, in this and all possible universes. Elliott Smith, baby.

I would assume that intelligence and psychopathy are not linked in any way. There are the dumb ones and the smart ones. But I am only guessing, I don't have any data.

Sociopathy is strongly associated with extremely high or extremely low intelligence. Psychopaths regularly have high IQs, but not the 140+ levels like some sociopaths. Without going into what our own IQs are, I think that anyone here who has gotten a very high result on an IQ test can see how their brainpower could easily lend itself to sociopathic naughtiness.

Yes, this is what I was thinking. A regular person might not even WANT to be a CEO because the decisions he would have to make seem immoral and anti-human. So, if you have a job that requires people to forget about their empathy and play by the numbers, knowingly cause trouble to other people, there is a greater chance that psychopaths will be found there.

I think there's a distinction between antisocial personalities (ASD) and psychopaths that will be drawn out on brain scans. I think all of us are, at some point in our lives, total assholes, and that's really what a diagnosis of ASD means: your shrink thinks you're a total asshole.

But ASD's criteria focus on the pattern of disregard for the rights of others, the lack of empathy, and the behavioral naughtiness that winds these people up in the clink. To some extent, we all disregard the rights of others; last summer, the President suggested that judges ought to use empathy in deciding how to rule on a case, and polls suggested that most Americans thought that was retarded. Many successful men, many ordinary men, are absolutely oblivious to how others feel. Some people are assholes. Sociopaths are total assholes. But their motivations and behaviors, while we find them deplorable, we can understand because we are not perfect people.

Psychopaths are a different animal. Cleckley more or less nailed it in calling them "intraspecies predators." Their brains work differently than ours. I'm not a neurologist, so I'll try not to cite evidence that I don't really understand, but Hare says that "the consensus among researchers in this area is that psychopathy stems from a specific neurological disorder which is biological in origin and present from birth." I don't know if I'd call psychopathy a genetic disorder, per se; the psychopathic genotype has obviously been selected for in our species. Lykken identifies impulsivity, cortical underarousal, and fearlessness as temperamental phenotypes present at birth in psychopaths. I suspect that most researchers, if you asked them, would agree that psychopathy involves a defective Theory of Mind, but I'm unaware of any research to that effect. ToM is more of an autism thing.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

Where do you people get your information. Have any of you even studied psychology?

Probably wikipedia. Haven't studied psyche beyond intro undergrad classes and I don't have a philosophy degree either so the ethics and psyche stuff are just opinions on my part.

 

[Othon]

Psychopaths are still people. If we're defining psychopathy by neurological workings rather than behavior, I find it very disturbing to hear that psychopaths should all just be exterminated. Psychopaths didn't CHOOSE to be psychopaths, and if they're psychopathy isn't manifested in APD tendencies, then it's a complete infringement on individual rights to go bananas on them. Does tyranny of the majority wring a bell? I can't imagine most psychopaths would rather stay as psychopaths if given the hypothetical alternative to live a richer life with the tools necessary to be constructive individuals. As such, I'm totally for rehabilitation. For the benefit of psychopaths AND the majority. See? Rehabilitation need not even be forced upon them.