Astrology - Are you a believer?

[Ming]

Both magazines and newspapers reflect the misogyny of the whole society.

I know it is too much to bear to recognise we live in a misogynist society, so we rationalise it to ourselves by quibbling over magazines or newspapers.

And of course it must be completely unbearable for a woman to recognise she lives in a misogynist society. To survive in such a society, to adapt to such a society, must do terrible things to her mind.

In a misogynist society women are dependent for love and support on the very people who regard them with contempt in public and treat them with violence in the home.

So rather than face this unbearable truth, women rationalise.

And rationalisation, as we know, is a psychological defence mechanism to protect us from a harmful truth.

And astrology is the prefect form of never ending rationalisation.

You know what Victor? I think I love you.

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

In actual fact, speaking in typology terms, there is a greater proportion of the Rational temperament in the male population than in the female population.

You speak of rational as if it were a disease! That is insulting for all scientists. Don't you think the proving of any theory is rationalising?

I would be more concerned over the irrational as that gives rise to prejudice and jumping to conclusions.

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

*tips hat* speaking from experience here ma'am...

Nevertheless provides an interesting opportunity to develop skills of rational argument

 

[ragashree]

nobody's explained that I'm supposed to be controlled in part by the Virgin yet... explain that and then I'll be stunned!

Ok, let's see what I can make of it (though you'd be better off applying to someone more knowledgable, I will admit!). I'll take up the challenge in any case. I can't guarantee that I understand it properly or that my explanation will be at all relevant though!

To summarise my understanding very briefly: the planets are supposed to represent archetypal energies that are present in every person's life, the signs the mode of expression those energies take. The houses represent the areas of your life in which the relevant energies are active, so presumably a house with a strong planetary influence represents an area of particular significance. Venus represents the impulse of creativity, self indulgence, and through those love, affection, and sexuality.

The sign of Virgo channels energy in a down to earth, practical, and organised manner, and is very detail oriented. It's supposed to be associated with virtue and purity, but this does not mean literal virginity or sexual reserve, unless these things are particularly important to you. Venus in Virgo means more that your love, sexuality, and creativity are likely to be expressed in a Virgo style - the emphasis would therefore be on practicality, stability, common sense, attending to relevant details, and an avoidance of game-playing or drama - Virgo likes to be tidy, rational, and has a certain emotional reserve. Physical health and nutrition are supposed to be important in Virgo, and caring for a partner's bodily needs is likely to be an important way of showing affection, maybe more than direct expressions of love or emotion, etc. Finding a stable partner may actually be difficult as the innately crictical nature of Virgo is likely to find a lot of faults in potential mates.

The first house is the house of outward appearances - how someone likes to put themselves across, so the sign and any planets there are quite significant in terms of your socialising and how you like to be seen (and are seen) by others. Venus in the first house suggests you are quite outgoing and sociable, with a tendency to be relaxed and casual in your associations with people, and able to form friends, get ahead in the world, and acquire lovers easily, if that's what you want to do, which it probably is. You're more likely to do these things for the pleasure of doing so than any long term ambitions however, unless something elsewhere in your chart gives you a more definite drive. Being on your own would be quite hard for you, as your pleasure and creativity are so linked to your social relations. Venus in this position is supposed to make you very aware of your personal appearance and fond of beautiful clothes and anything that will enhance your appearance, along with a certain tendency to self-indulgence, and a playful tendency. This will be moderated to some degree by the Virgo influence however, as described above.

It's probably also going to make you very keen to nurture and care for others, probably in the physical sense too in the case of lovers etc, and to be very aware of any health issues they may have, along with a tendency to analyse, rather than experience, emotions, and to dwell on their faults. Since Virgo is linked with practical reason and is channeling visceral, emotional, instinctive energy, you ought to be a naturally good psychologist, as both are present but neither is able to dominate the other; you should therefore be able to analyse emotions in your interactions with others as they happen and make practical sense of them, without getting carried away.

Anywhere near right? Most of this is guesswork, based on the few principles I know!

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

You know what Victor? I think I love you.

 

[Mole]

In actual fact, speaking in typology terms, there is a greater proportion of the Rational temperament in the male population than in the female population.

You speak of rational as if it were a disease! That is insulting for all scientists. Don't you think the proving of any theory is rationalising?

I would be more concerned over the irrational as that gives rise to prejudice and jumping to conclusions.

Rational means reasonable.

While rationalisation is a neurotic defence mechanism.

However both words are similar, so no wonder they get confused.

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

In fact (based on the word Rational) in the Oxford Reference Dictionary the definition of Rationalize shows your definition as only 1 of 6 different meanings. Each of the rest of the definitions are about justifying/proving an argument/hypothesis.

I forgot - along with prejudice and jumping to conclusions, generalising is another attribute of the irrational argument.

 

[Resonance]

I concede that there is a large degree of charlatanism in astrology.

On the other hand, at a macro scale, we KNOW the effect that the moon has on menses, tides, and the observable but not proven beyond doubt, psychoses, behaviour and sleep patterns.

Do you have a reliable source for this? I mean, tides and menses ok but I always thought the behaviour effects were a result of confirmation bias and maybe a little bit of thomas theorem.

We also KNOW without doubt, the effect that sunspot activity has on radio frequency communication and who knows what else.

yes but that is another chaos theory barrier ;D

So why are we so ready to absolutely deny the possibility of subtle effects of other heavenly bodies simply based on our observation of the charlatans?

Would it not be better to say I don't believe it based on what I understand now but I am open to the possibility rather than adamantly denying it?

I would be more likely to believe anything where the logic actually reaches from point A to B, for example the moon affects tides which affects trade with other nations which influences child development at that time of year, or something. But like, try harder than just 'oh, astrology COULD be true!' XD

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

Ok, let's see what I can make of it (though you'd be better off applying to someone more knowledgable, I will admit!). I'll take up the challenge in any case. I can't guarantee that I understand it properly or that my explanation will be at all relevant though!

To summarise my understanding very briefly: the planets are supposed to represent archetypal energies that are present in every person's life, the signs the mode of expression those energies take. The houses represent the areas of your life in which the relevant energies are active, so presumably a house with a strong planetary influence represents an area of particular significance. Venus represents the impulse of creativity, self indulgence, and through those love, affection, and sexuality.

The sign of Virgo channels energy in a down to earth, practical, and organised manner, and is very detail oriented. It's supposed to be associated with virtue and purity, but this does not mean literal virginity or sexual reserve, unless these things are particularly important to you. Venus in Virgo means more that your love, sexuality, and creativity are likely to be expressed in a Virgo style - the emphasis would therefore be on practicality, stability, common sense, attending to relevant details, and an avoidance of game-playing or drama - Virgo likes to be tidy, rational, and has a certain emotional reserve. Physical health and nutrition are supposed to be important in Virgo, and caring for a partner's bodily needs is likely to be an important way of showing affection, maybe more than direct expressions of love or emotion, etc. Finding a stable partner may actually be difficult as the innately crictical nature of Virgo is likely to find a lot of faults in potential mates.

The first house is the house of outward appearances - how someone likes to put themselves across, so the sign and any planets there are quite significant in terms of your socialising and how you like to be seen (and are seen) by others. Venus in the first house suggests you are quite outgoing and sociable, with a tendency to be relaxed and casual in your associations with people, and able to form friends, get ahead in the world, and acquire lovers easily, if that's what you want to do, which it probably is. You're more likely to do these things for the pleasure of doing so than any long term ambitions however, unless something elsewhere in your chart gives you a more definite drive. Being on your own would be quite hard for you, as your pleasure and creativity are so linked to your social relations. Venus in this position is supposed to make you very aware of your personal appearance and fond of beautiful clothes and anything that will enhance your appearance, along with a certain tendency to self-indulgence, and a playful tendency. This will be moderated to some degree by the Virgo influence however, as described above.

It's probably also going to make you very keen to nurture and care for others, probably in the physical sense too in the case of lovers etc, and to be very aware of any health issues they may have, along with a tendency to analyse, rather than experience, emotions, and to dwell on their faults. Since Virgo is linked with practical reason and is channeling visceral, emotional, instinctive energy, you ought to be a naturally good psychologist, as both are present but neither is able to dominate the other; you should therefore be able to analyse emotions in your interactions with others as they happen and make practical sense of them, without getting carried away.

Anywhere near right? Most of this is guesswork, based on the few principles I know!

Interestingly this posits the possibility that the attributes of the ancient Gods, and the traits with which they were identified, probably came after the observation of similarities in character based on birth dates. Venus was the deity invented to explain the similarities of the traits with which she was attributed???

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

Do you have a reliable source for this? I mean, tides and menses ok but I always thought the behaviour effects were a result of confirmation bias and maybe a little bit of thomas theorem.


yes but that is another chaos theory barrier ;D


I would be more likely to believe anything where the logic actually reaches from point A to B, for example the moon affects tides which affects trade with other nations which influences child development at that time of year, or something. But like, try harder than just 'oh, astrology COULD be true!' XD

My first career was as a Mental Health Nurse and it is accepted anecdotally that the full moon has a distinct negative effect on sleep patterns of many people and psychoses. Hence the word Lunatic. Whether that is the effect of the moon on water, of which our body is largely made up, or something other I cannot tell you.

 

[ragashree]

Interestingly this posits the possibility that the attributes of the ancient Gods, and the traits with which they were identified, probably came after the observation of similarities in character based on birth dates. Venus was the deity invented to explain the similarities of the traits with which she was attributed???

It's not often I'll admit to really not having a clue about something that I've bothered engaging with in the first place, but you've got me there! I don't know who would have the answer to that sort of question actually, though I do know that a representation of the love goddess is an important and consistent archetype across most, if not all the major polytheistic faiths and their associated mythologies. Isis in Egyptian, Freya in Norse, Branwen in Celtic, the list goes on. Not to forget Ishtar, the Babylonian/Assyrian version, who must be counted significant in this context due to the association of astrology with the Babylonians; she was also associated with the planet Venus. Even the Mesoamericans such as the Aztecs had their own version, and it's unlikely they had any cultural connection with the old world systems of belief. The archetype itself, then, must be of profound importance, however represented. It would be interesting to look into how widespread the planetary association was too...

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

The archetype itself, then, must be of profound importance, however represented. It would be interesting to look into how widespread the planetary association was too...

I agree wholeheartedly! I oftentimes wish I knew what knowledge and understanding, mathematical and scientific principles, and thought were originally stored in the great library in Alexandria. The few designs of Archimedes (and other ancients) that have survived to now have demonstrated understanding of physical principles we lay claim to have proven only in modern times.

Much of what is being studied about the origin and nature of the Universe in Quantum Mechanics borders on the mystical that we would have dismissed 50 years ago, and would seem to be on the very edges of some of the principles of Astrology.

 

[ragashree]

Do you have a reliable source for this? I mean, tides and menses ok but I always thought the behaviour effects were a result of confirmation bias and maybe a little bit of thomas theorem.

yes but that is another chaos theory barrier ;D

I would be more likely to believe anything where the logic actually reaches from point A to B, for example the moon affects tides which affects trade with other nations which influences child development at that time of year, or something. But like, try harder than just 'oh, astrology COULD be true!' XD

Honestly, I consider this aspect of the debate to be rather fruitless, which is why I didn't pay it much attention when you were posting on this before, especially as I and others have already dealt with the issue at some length earlier in the thread. I'm going to bed shortly and don't have the energy right now to repeat at length points I've already made, but I'll link these posts for now:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...18-astrology-you-believer-20.html#post1133056

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...018-astrology-you-believer-8.html#post1128703

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

I'm going to bed shortlyhttp://www.typologycentral.com/foru...018-astrology-you-believer-8.html#post1128703

Sweet dreams :hi:

 

[Lex Talionis]

Do numbers hold a special meaning?

No.

It's far worse than mere charlatanism, it is misogyny.

For in a misogynist society women are treated with contempt, and there is nothing more contemptuous than putting astrology at the back of women's magazines.

Yes, almost all women's magazines have astrology at the back, sometimes three, four or five pages of astrology.

And in a misogynist society women suffer the Stockholm Syndrome, where in order to survive, they accept the values of those who regard them with contempt.

And those who suffer the Stockholm Syndrome are called compradors, and support and co-operate and collaborate with those who regard them with contempt.

Misogyny is an iron trap, and even co-opts those it regards with contempt.

And astrology treats women with contempt.

Our largest crime statistic is domestic violence - the violence of men against women in the home.

And in a misogynists society it is so easy to move from public contempt of women, to private violence in the home.

I hope you aren't serious. Women are the privileged class in America, along with all other "protected" groups.

 

[Resonance]

My first career was as a Mental Health Nurse and it is accepted anecdotally that the full moon has a distinct negative effect on sleep patterns of many people and psychoses. Hence the word Lunatic. Whether that is the effect of the moon on water, of which our body is largely made up, or something other I cannot tell you.

hmm, well, I tried to find something scientific about this and all I came up with was a study which examined 391 people with sleep disorders and only 8% had problems sleeping on a full moon whereas 25% slept especially well.

There are lots of articles saying one way or another but none of them actually cite any sources other than that... but you know, the ones which claim it *does* have an effect also have articles on things like 'magic' and the ones which say there is conflicting evidence and nothing solid are the ones which have other scientific or medical articles...

I don't mean to offend, but I don't think something being 'anecdotally accepted' by a small community of mental health nurses is really much of a point in favour of it being true. Skills which are important for that profession include putting aside skepticism in order to treat your patients with respect, even when they are clearly delusional - and this causes cognitive dissonance. This is an excellent growing environment for confirmation bias and thomas theorem.

 

[Resonance]

Honestly, I consider this aspect of the debate to be rather fruitless, which is why I didn't pay it much attention when you were posting on this before, especially as I and others have already dealt with the issue at some length earlier in the thread. I'm going to bed shortly and don't have the energy right now to repeat at length points I've already made, but I'll link these posts for now:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...18-astrology-you-believer-20.html#post1133056

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...018-astrology-you-believer-8.html#post1128703

So basically what you are saying is that because astrology is pseudoscience, it doesn't get funded studies to actually confirm/deny its predictions. Right?

There is more to science than falsifiability, but even that's not as important as the fact that astrology isn't at all unified. There is little or no consistency...

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

hmm, well, I tried to find something scientific about this and all I came up with was a study which examined 391 people with sleep disorders and only 8% had problems sleeping on a full moon whereas 25% slept especially well.

There are lots of articles saying one way or another but none of them actually cite any sources other than that... but you know, the ones which claim it *does* have an effect also have articles on things like 'magic' and the ones which say there is conflicting evidence and nothing solid are the ones which have other scientific or medical articles...

I don't mean to offend, but I don't think something being 'anecdotally accepted' by a small community of mental health nurses is really much of a point in favour of it being true. Skills which are important for that profession include putting aside skepticism in order to treat your patients with respect, even when they are clearly delusional - and this causes cognitive dissonance. This is an excellent growing environment for confirmation bias and thomas theorem.

LOL I am not offended by logical argument or discussion, nor am I fixed in my ideas I am just not ready to dismiss the possibility.

 

[Resonance]

LOL I am not offended by logical argument or discussion, nor am I fixed in my ideas I am just not ready to dismiss the possibility.

What about the possibility that there are 3 invisible pink unicorns in the room next to you?

 

[InsatiableCuriosity]

What about the possibility that there are 3 invisible pink unicorns in the room next to you?

There is always possibility They may exist in someone else's reality and, without proof I could not dismiss them but would rather look at why someone believes that they are there??

In this life I think the only absolutes must be qualified by what we as individuals know and understand now, based on our experience to date - the rest is open to speculation.