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View Poll Results: Do you believe in astrology?

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  • Yes

    33 18.13%
  • No

    142 78.02%
  • I have no idea what it is? So I'm not sure.

    7 3.85%
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  1. #221
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    This is the first time I've ever seen Ragashree make a post, but, from what I've seen on this thread and on my wall today, he's a great example of this kind of thinking.

    Jag might be as well, but it's harder to tell cuz his posts are usually so short.

    Tesla seems to be a great example of this kind of thinking in a traditional Ti user.

    Uumlau also seems good at it.


  2. #222
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Jag might be as well, but it's harder to tell cuz his posts are usually so short.
    Oh?

  3. #223
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    I'm sorry to take it all the way back to here, but I never actually read this post, and I now see that your terminology I've questioned in my most recent response (objective variable, et al) beckons back to here.

    I wish it were easier to interlace all of our responses back to each other, but I'm afraid it would be a giant pain in the ass (simple multi-quoting won't work).

    As such, I'm gunna try to just make this as simple as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What's your point? I'm talking about the way they function, not the the developmental history. If they do the same thing, I don't care how each was developed for purposes of this discussion.
    What do you even mean they "do the same thing".

    The only arbitrary thing I've seen amongst any of the topics of discussion in this thread has been your equation of astrology and MBTI.

    Just because there are 12 sun signs and 16 MBTI types and the two pertain in their own ways to personality does not mean that the two methods are at all similar.

    You are trying to force the two into a narrow box, and, by doing so, you're making me about as frustrated with your all-too-often simplistic, narrow-minded thinking as Jaguar always seems to be.

    THAT is what's arbitrary, Sim: your equating of the two.

    The reason I brought up the fact that the developmental history AND methodology (you didn't even acknowledge the second of these two in your response) of astrology differ greatly from those of MBTI is that this difference is SIGNIFICANT (i.e., to arbitrarily equate the two -- as you did -- is a grievous error of reasoning, and will only serve to produce a fucked-up end result).

    Hence, when you say something idiotic like...

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm afraid the horrible reasoning is coming from your Ti fail, here.
    ... I can only and laugh, because what's obvious is that it's your narrow-minded, simplistic attempt to equate two VERY DIFFERENT things that is the fail here.

    Thus, Sim, it is actually your Ti fail, here.

    Your Ti is trying to cram a triangle and a circle into a triangle-shaped box.

    And it is my Ni that is noticing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You assume there's such a thing as a "Libra personality" exactly the same way you assume there's such a thing as an "INTJ personality." If you remove the part about correlation between birth date and personality, typology and astrology are identical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It's actually birth date, time, and location.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    How does this change anything meaningful?
    Because what you failed to understand is that I was trying to show that, based on your (lack of) knowledge of astrology, you weren't realizing that astrology and MBTI are, in fact, too differently shaped to be properly crammed into the same-shaped box.

    Obviously, you didn't get this; hence, your question.

    I will further elucidate this point below:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's not that astrology "isn't real"--each sign actually does have well-defined, observable personality traits associated with it, just like in typology. The only thing "not real" about it is the claim that people born on a Libra date will show Libra traits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    All assumptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's not an unreasonable assumption that each astrological type has personality traits associated with it. That's in the definition of the system.
    The issue is that you don't actually understand the system, so you don't know why this isn't really the case.

    If you understood the astrological system better, you would see why this argument fails.

    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Also, you're putting too much emphasis on the sun sign.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    As for the sun sign emphasis, it makes no difference to my point.
    No, it doesn't.

    Your point is whatever you want it to be, and this doesn't change it.

    It does, however, change the efficacy of your point.

    See, not having any real working knowledge of the astrological system, you (and your point, for that matter) are working under the assumption that the 12 sun signs are comparable to the 16 MBTI types.

    The problem is: they're not.

    As I said multiple times earlier in the thread, the sun sign is basically like 1% of a full astrological natal chart.

    If you wanted to be extremely forgiving, you might be willing to offer that it represents approximately 10% of the content of a full astrological profile.

    So, while it might not make a difference to your point, it does render your point useless.

    That's the part that I clearly see that you clearly don't.

    Which brings us back to a point that I want to reemphasize quickly:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'm afraid the horrible reasoning is coming from your Ti fail, here.
    No, Sim.

    The horrible reasoning is coming from your lack of any substantive knowledge of astrology, which causes you to fail to realize that your attempt to compare and equate astrology and MBTI is completely devoid of any truth, relevance and/or value.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, it's as simple as making up a labeling system. Twelve is an arbitrarily chosen number just as sixteen is an arbitrarily chosen number in typology.
    This is a discussion for another day, but I really can't stand your consistent use of the word "arbitrary" in this way.

    Your use of the word "arbitrary" is too arbitrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    We could make up an equally valid system using only two personality types, or two-hundred, or whatever number we want; it just depends on where you draw the distinctions between people and how many you choose to draw.
    There are no such things as "personality types" in astrology. Every chart is unique. There are no "types".

    Most people know only their sun sign, which, as I've said before, is just a small facet of astrology.

    To equate one's sun sign to a "personality type" is highly problematic and erroneous.

    One who actually knows the astrological system would know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    A correlation between birth date and personality is clearly falsifiable because we can compare people's behavior to their objective birth data and see that for the vast majority of people there's no real correlation. This is unrelated to the idea of making up arbitrary personality categories that cannot be falsified (as in typology.)

    When you introduce any objective variable into the system (like birth date), you open yourself up to falsifiability. Since Jungian typology contains no objective variables, it is not making any falsifiable claim and thus has no truth/falsehood value.

    Is it "true" that people who ignore the feelings of others are "assholes"? We don't have an objective definition of "asshole", so calling someone an asshole is not a falsifiable claim, and yet somehow people still generally understand what the term means. Not everyone will agree on who's an asshole and who isn't--but if we were to introduce the condition that, say, everyone born in April is an asshole, we'd be introducing an objective variable which creates falsifiability.
    Did you know that there are potentially hundreds of supposedly meaningful data points in a full natal chart?

    And that the meaning of one data point can contradict the meaning of another?

    And that this is all looked at as well and fine according to astrology (and common sense), because people often have competing and contradictory dimensions to their own personalities?

    So, in light of the above, how easy (let alone possible) do you think it would be to isolate for all these different aspects of a full natal chart in order to scientifically verify or falsify astrology?

    Hint: if you're thinking "it would be easy", stop for a second, breathe, remind yourself that you don't really know jack shit about astrology, and repeat.

    Then go read a book about astrology.


  4. #224
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    I feel like I just took a giant dump.


  5. #225
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    Alright, so I think everyone's lubed up enough for insertion, so I'm just gunna get right to it.

    As I said before in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    All I said is that it was enough to prompt me to learn more about astrology.

    Do you know much about astrology?

    If not, let me ask you this: what do you think of people who write off ideas without knowing much about them?
    I don't think one can speak intelligently on astrology unless one has come to study and understand their own natal chart and astrological profile with a truly open mind.

    Accordingly, I ask of any person who has posted in this thread and who has not done the above to do so.

    Here's the first place I got a full natal chart reading.

    There are many others, but I found this one to be pretty good: Astrology.com Personal Astrology Profile.

    Remember: I said that you must approach this study with an open mind.

    If you are closed off to it from the get go, you might as well be listening to a lecture with your eyes closed, hands over your ears, screaming, "LALALALALALAALAALALALAAA", at the end of which you say, "Well, I didn't really get anything of merit out of that."

  6. #226
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    I see the astral themes of peoples when I try to type them, so I guess, that I believe in, yes.
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    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  7. #227
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    To a degree, yes. I'm also interested in numerology and find, like many others, that it relates closely to the Enneagram.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charmed Justice View Post
    To a degree, yes. I'm also interested in numerology and find, like many others, that it relates closely to the Enneagram.
    But what about Homeopathy?

  9. #229
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    I will add that the first natal chart I had done was uncanny in many ways. There were enough specifics that I certainly could not explain how it could be that close to describing my upbringing and parents, certain aspects of my personality (and bad ones too) the kind of men I was attracted to etc. etc. Too specific in my mind to simply be attributable to the Forer effect.

    Do I believe astrology as a predictive? No. But neither do I dismiss something simply because there is no concrete proof. Pfft, why would I even be on this site in the first place then? Z has good advice - you can't give any objective response in this thread if you have not done your own due diligence.

    There's an old astrology thread started by Tinkerbell a while back - I think I posted something more substantive there. I'll go back and find it.

    And Z - I enjoy how you are standing up here and defending the almost indefensible. There's a general trend to mock something not understood, rather than going to get the data for yourself and making your own conclusions.

    Here's one of my posts in that thread: PB Natal Chart

    I would love to have a renowned, professional astrologist do a chart for me and see how accurate that would be ... apparently there's as much art as science about these things, theories as to what would have more influence when some part of the charts are in opposition etc.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #230
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    Poll Options
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    I have no idea what it is? So I'm not sure.


    No grey area???
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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