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View Poll Results: Do you believe in astrology?

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  • Yes

    33 18.13%
  • No

    142 78.02%
  • I have no idea what it is? So I'm not sure.

    7 3.85%
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  1. #91
    figsfiggyfigs
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    No, I'm not a believer at all. However, I think its a fascinating theory.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    outstanding post
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You don't seem to have explained how different planetary positions actually affect our personalities. All you've established is that the planets are in different places when different people are born.

    Through what physical mechanism do planetary positions have any influence whatsoever on personality?
    No one said it was a physical mechanism.

    Apparently you didn't read either of these:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Regardless, that's all very nice but what I want to know is how astrology explains the correlation between character traits and the movement of the planets. Is astrology a science?
    Quote Originally Posted by zarathustra View Post
    As for the second part of your comment, I'm so glad you asked:
    Cosmos and Psyche: Intimations of a New World View - by Richard Tarnas

    Download the real player audio file (second link) under "Interviews"
    Listen to that.

    And read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Tarnas' Introduction to Archetypal Astrology

    I was curious as to how he'd explain the causal mechanism. His explanation avoids the assertion that cosmic alignment causes a direct impact on human nature, but that it's more accurate to say that cosmic alignment represents the current archetypal forces present in the universe [or local region, I suppose] at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think you've made an error in reasoning here when you say that the odds of this happening were 1 in 144.

    Consider the design of astrology. There are distinct personality traits defined as characteristic of each astrological sign. These can be observed and categorized easily by anyone familiar with astrology. In this regard it's exactly like typology.

    The problem comes with the assumption that each of the 12 categories always aligns with a particular set of birth dates/times. But 1 in 12 people, by random chance, will happen to be born at a date/time which aligns with the arbitrarily defined behavioral characteristics of his astrological sign. You are one of these people.

    The fact that two different astrology enthusiasts both recognized personality traits in you that are defined as "Libra" doesn't mean anything special. There's still just a 1 in 12 chance that you're one of the people for whom those two pieces of data happen to align--and if you are one of those people, any number of successive astrology enthusiasts can and will predict your birth date correctly. If you interacted with 1,000 astrology enthusiasts, they'd probably all recognize Libra behavioral traits in you--there's no random chance involved in that. The only random chance is the fact that you happen to be one of the 1 in 12 "Libra personalities" who just so happened to be born on a "Libra date." (The other 11 of every 12 people those clothing store employees pull this shit on will not identify with their astrological predictions--go figure.)

    Astrology is popular because of those 1 in 12 people. For them, it seems miraculous how consistently and accurately people who study astrology can guess their birth dates based on their behavior, but there's nothing miraculous about it. 1,000 astrology enthusiasts in a row might peg you for a Libra after interacting with you, but the odds of that are definitely not 12^1000 to 1. 1 in 12 people will get consistently correct readings over and over again; the other 11 will rarely/never identify with the reading (and this is not even taking into account confirmation bias.)

    If all MBTI types occurred equally often, and we divided the calendar year into 16 pieces and assigned each type to one section of the year, 1 in 16 people would have a birthday aligning with his MBTI type. Let's say INTJs are associated with birth dates from October 1 to October 23.

    If you happen to be an INTJ born between those dates, which 1 in 16 INTJs will be, then anyone who knows about MBTI types will be able to "discern" your birth date based on your behavior--this could happen again and again and again, but it wouldn't be any less probable than 1 in 16, because 1 in 16 INTJs will happen to have that birth date. You don't square the odds every time it happens, because anyone who knows MBTI types can tell that you exhibit INTJ (or Libra, as the case may be) traits.

    Go find one of those clothing store employees and find out how often her guesses are actually accurate. I'll bet you a million dollars it's right around 1 in 12--but for those 1 in 12, she seems like a regular John Edward!

    Not coincidentally, right about 1 in 12 people answered "yes" to this poll, and it's because they're the ones whose birth dates happened to align with the personality traits associated with their astrological sign--so 1 in 12 people will consistently find accurate descriptions of themselves. Their support for astrology invariably rests on personal anecdotal evidence, like your story up there. If you really want to establish any validity for astrological prediction of birth date/time vs. behavior, do a full study on a large number of people.

    Guess what you'll find--it works for about 1 in 12.
    I actually like this argument, cuz it presents the strongest possible counterargument to my anecdotal story.

    But doesn't it assume that there's actually such a thing within these 1/12 individuals called a "Libra personality" (Or Ares, or whatever...).

    Where does that come from if astrology isn't real?

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And here I am trapped like a rat in a search-light.

    But it's true, I am mildly neurotic and I do act out here.

    But remember we can't act out unless it is unconscious. So very slowly I am teasing out my unconscious here - I am slowly making my unconscious, conscious.

    And I recognise this is disturbing for those whose unconscious remains unconscious. For their unconscious drives them without their knowing. And their unconscious is unconscious for very good reason - and here I am disturbing them.

    No wonder they seek to ward me off by obsessive logic, by telling me I'm wrong, by accusing me of being a troll, by ad hominem attacks, and finally by threats of violence.

    Yes, I have certainly struck a nerve. But thank heavens I have kept mine.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Indeed. Astrology is just designed in such a way that ~1 in 12 people will happen to get disturbingly correct predictions from it, so it lingers on and on...
    Once again, this is assuming that the astrological system has some kinda of ontological truth to it, at least in the sense that it defines 1/12 actual personalities in the world to which human beings' actual personalities can correspond...

    Also, you seem rather unaware that the sun sign is actually a very small part of one's astrological profile...

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    ^ Also, I don't necessarily believe in astrology, and I didn't vote that way in this poll.

    I just don't write things off that might as well stay open-ended.

  6. #96
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Is this a test thread to see if an INTJ believes in astrology, if we will all suddenly decide that we also believe in astrology? 47!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    (Fuzz-y-enfj-thingy you are behind this arent you??) I AM NOT FALLING for it. YOU WILL NOT TRICK ME THIS TIME.

    Sun sign is scorpio and is pointless.

    However sun sign Scorpio and moon sign taurus gave a description that kinda sounded like familiar....

  7. #97
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    And apparently more like 1 in 7 people responded in the affirmative to the poll...

    Of course, according to your theory, 1/12 might see their actual personality correspond to their supposed astrological personality, and perhaps another 5/84 are convinced by those 1/12 people to also believe in it.

    Or perhaps the 5/84 are suffering from confirmation bias, and are wrongly reporting positive results.

    Or perhaps it is both.

    Or perhaps...

    Or perhaps...

  8. #98
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragashree View Post
    Indeed. I suspect this is all too often because it doesn't fit their belief system, which is often at heart a mechanistic one. Arguments against it in this case are almost inevitably straw men, serving more to validate the non-believer's lack of belief than to change the opinion of those who do believe.
    Don't forget the best reason: To mock people who believe in it for the entertainment of those who know it's garbage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I actually like this argument, cuz it presents the strongest possible counterargument to my anecdotal story.

    But doesn't it assume that there's actually such a thing within these 1/12 individuals called a "Libra personality" (Or Ares, or whatever...).

    Where does that come from if astrology isn't real?
    It comes from the same place typological categories come from: taking the set of all human behavior and dividing arbitrarily into categories.

    You assume there's such a thing as a "Libra personality" exactly the same way you assume there's such a thing as an "INTJ personality." If you remove the part about correlation between birth date and personality, typology and astrology are identical.

    It's not that astrology "isn't real"--each sign actually does have well-defined, observable personality traits associated with it, just like in typology. The only thing "not real" about it is the claim that people born on a Libra date will show Libra traits.

    You just take all human behavior and chop it up into arbitrarily defined categories. I would have no problem with astrology as a classification system if it did not claim a falsifiable correlation between birth date and personality. As I said, aside from this claim, the two systems are functionally identical.

    As for the sun sign being only a small part of the astrological chart, that doesn't really matter. No matter how you choose to slice up the categories, you're still making an incorrect claim that the positions of celestial bodies at the time of birth correlate with personality type. Typology makes no such falsifiable claim--psychological type cannot be tested empirically, but birth date can.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I believe astrology exists, but I don't believe it has any predictive power. That seems to be what the thread is about, right?
    If you listen to that interview I posted with Richard Tarnas, you'll see that he actually says it doesn't have predictive power, that astrology is better looked at as a clock, keeping the "time" of the multitude of archetypal impulses manifesting themselves in an extremely complex manner across the universe.

    A clock doesn't predict what's going to happen in the future -- it merely keeps the time.

    Admittedly, astrology is very unscientifically rigorous, as Jock pointed out, but Tarnas says exactly that in his book.

    The best part of his book is really about this exact topic. About how our obsession with scientific proof has bred in us a tendency to not believe in anything that cannot be proven by the scientific method.

    This is a problematic tendency, as there are many things in life which cannot be scientifically proven, but which are nonetheless true.

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Don't forget the best reason: To mock people who believe in it for the entertainment of those who know believe it's garbage.
    's advocate.

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