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Anxiety, Depression and Snake Oil

Mole

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It seems that many, if not most, threads are devoted to validating the neurosis, in particular to validating the defence mechanisms of the neurosis.

It reminds me of the back ward of the psychiatric hospital at Little Bay where I was surprised to discover that the schizophrenics validated one another's delusions.

Here we don't validate delusions, except religious delusions, but we do validate the defence mechanisms of neurosis.

In fact MBTI was set up to validate the neurosis of Mrs Isabel Briggs Myers.

As you know the defence mechanisms are to ward off anxiety and depression. And Isabel set up MBTI to ward off her own anxiety and depression.

And MBTI is such a successful defence mechanism to ward off anxiety and depression that Isabel was able to play the role of Pollyanna all her life.

And the role of Pollyanna fitted her culture like a glove. For Pollyanna is the perfect persona for a salesman. And Americans love a salesman, in fact their great theatrical tragedy is called, "Death of a Salesman".

And so today Americans are selling MBTI to the world as snake oil to ward of anxiety and depression.

Bless their cotton socks.
 
H

Hate

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And MBTI is such a successful defence mechanism to ward off anxiety and depression that Isabel was able to play the role of Pollyanna all her life.

And so today Americans are selling MBTI to the world as snake oil to ward of anxiety and depression.

I read a couple of your posts regarding MBTI and I get what your saying.. But if it is such a successful defense mechanism to ward off anxiety and depression, then how can you consider it snake oil? Wouldn't it just be considered a remedy? It's better than taking xanax or anti-depressants isn't it?
 

Mole

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MBTI and the Inadequate Parent

I read a couple of your posts regarding MBTI and I get what your saying.. But if it is such a successful defense mechanism to ward off anxiety and depression, then how can you consider it snake oil? Wouldn't it just be considered a remedy? It's better than taking xanax or anti-depressants isn't it?

Yes, it would seem to be as good as xanax in that it does ward off anxiety and depression.

However, like xanax, we need to keep on taking MBTI to continue to ward off anxiety and depression.

And warding off anxiety and depression does enable us to get on with our ordinary life.

However once we stop using MBTI or xanax, we are left with anxiety and depression.

And at this point we may need help to understand our anxiety and depression so that we may grow into empathic and creative grown-ups.

Alternatively we can remain as querulous children dependent on MBTI or xanax.

It is in that sense that MBTI is snake oil, in that it takes advantage of our vulnerability without helping us grow and achieve our life goals.

MBTI is like an inadequate parent who uses us for their own purposes and is unable and unwilling to help us achieve our own goals.
 
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Shimmy

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Victor we get it. MBTI isn't science. I totally agree that we (including myself) spend way too much time using it to explain our individual psyches, but if you really want to convince us to stop doing that, you've got to be more subtle and less obnoxious.
 
H

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Yes, it would seem to be as good as xanax in that it does ward off anxiety and depression.

I don’t think you can put these two in the same category as being equal. MBTI is obviously better than Xanax because I have never seen someone strung out in rehab over MBTI. It also doesn’t alter the brain chemistry like benzodiazepines do.

like xanax, we need to keep on taking MBTI to continue to ward off anxiety and depression.

This sounds like too much of a generalization. ..I’ve never experienced MBTI withdrawals before, but I do know what Xanax withdrawals are like and there is no comparison.

However once we stop using MBTI or xanax, we are left with anxiety and depression.And at this point we may need help to understand our anxiety and depression so that we may grow into empathic and creative grown-ups.

I know exactly where my anxiety and depression comes from. But just because we understand where our anxiety and depression comes from, doesn’t mean that it’s going to go away. I’m a terminal disease survivor and my entire life has been one chain of traumatic events after another. But even though I’m still alive it doesn’t mean that I’ll ever be able to go back to normal again. I’m damaged beyond repair and it’s good to have something like MBTI instead of drugs and alcohol.

It is in that sense that MBTI is snake oil, in that it takes advantage of our vulnerability without helping us grow and achieve our life goals.

I got into MBTI five years ago when I was dying from a disease. It turned out to be the catalyst for me to begin the self-discovery process which then led me to venture into other subjects which ultimately led to me mustering up the strength to survive my disease. So it definitely was the catalyst that did help me grow.

MBTI is like an inadequate parent who uses us for their own purposes and is unable and unwilling to help us achieve our own goals.

I don't know where you grew up, but where I come from, having an inadequate parent is better than having no parents.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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I don't see the connection between MBTI and depression/anxiety. I see a connection between internet obsession and anxiety/depression. Is it that MBTI simplifies and categories people appearing to make them more predictable? If anything I have found it either has no effect or makes me a little more depressed because of a certain futility of it. But then, I'm not all that convinced of MBTI, but mostly just like the people here and have been on this particular forum and related ones since they were created, so it is easier than trying to establish new distantly remote friendships and sort-of connections with people since I already have that here.
 

Stanton Moore

morose bourgeoisie
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Victor.

Would you be satisfied if typology went away? If it ceased to exist? Would you be content then, or is your discontent the product of a larger dissatisfaction? My suspicion is that, yes, it is the product of a greater malcontent, and it's dissolution would not fill you with glee for long...
So what are you after?
 

Chunes

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The MBTI-bashing is too big a part of Victor's ego now. If MBTI went away, he would be devastated rather than elated.
 

Mole

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The Sacrificial, the Abusive, the Authoritarian and the Helping Form of Child Rearing

I don't know where you grew up, but where I come from, having an inadequate parent is better than having no parents.

This is very true indeed.

And child rearing practices have been improving over time as we have become more prosperous and educated.

We started off with the sacrificial form of child rearing, where an angry God was placated by child sacrifice. And good example is Abraham who an angry God ordered to gut and sacrifice his son.

But then slowly the sacrificial form of child rearing was replaced by the abusive form of child rearing. And we still see remnants of this in child sexual abuse.

And then the abusive form of child rearing gave way and is giving way to the authoritarian form of child rearing. The authoritarian form of child rearing is associated with the invention of the printing press and the dream of universal literacy, achieved by compulsory, authoritarian schooling. And almost all of us here have experienced compulsory, authoritarian schooling. So successful that some of us have become authors ourselves.

And thank heavens the authoritarian form of child rearing is giving way to the helping form of child rearing, at least in prosperous, educated countries.

So rather than raising the child to meet the needs of the parents, the parents help the child reach their own life goals.
 
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Mole

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The Development Model

Victor.

Would you be satisfied if typology went away? If it ceased to exist? Would you be content then, or is your discontent the product of a larger dissatisfaction? My suspicion is that, yes, it is the product of a greater malcontent, and it's dissolution would not fill you with glee for long...
So what are you after?

I see it as a development.

Just as astronomy developed from astrology, and just as chemistry developed from alchemy, and just as natural selection developed from creationism, so psychometrics is a development from MBTI.

So naturally I am interested in developing myself on the internet, and a well run and tolerant site like this is a good place to start.

And so naturally MBTI will remain, and the question is, how will I develop next?
 

Mole

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I don't see the connection between MBTI and depression/anxiety.

MBTI will not cure clinical depression. For clinical depression is a psychosis where the sufferer is emotionally out of touch with reality.

Rather MBTI may help neurotic depression or anxiety, where the sufferer is still in touch with emotional reality.

And so we find very few psychotics here but we have our fair share of neurotics.
 
H

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And thank heavens the authoritarian form of child rearing is giving way to the helping form of child rearing, at least in prosperous, educated countries.

So rather than raising the child to meet the needs of the parents, the parents help the child reach their own life goals.

So are you saying that MBTI is the new helping parent or the inadequate parent?
 

Mole

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So are you saying that MBTI is the new helping parent or the inadequate parent?

Plainly the latter.

And an inadequate parent is better than a bad parent.

And a bad parent is better than no parent.
 
H

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MBTI will not cure clinical depression. For clinical depression is a psychosis where the sufferer is emotionally out of touch with reality.

Rather MBTI may help neurotic depression or anxiety, where the sufferer is still in touch with emotional reality.

And so we find very few psychotics here but we have our fair share of neurotics.

Where is the line drawn between clinical depression and neurotic depression? How can you tell the difference?

Could you elaborate on the emotional reality part. How do you know if someone's in touch or out of touch with it?
 

Mole

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Where is the line drawn between clinical depression and neurotic depression? How can you tell the difference?

Could you elaborate on the emotional reality part. How do you know if someone's in touch or out of touch with it?

Those suffering from schizophrenia have a thought disorder.

While those suffering from clinical depression have an emotional disorder.

So schizophrenics have delusions of thought, while the clinically depressed have delusions of emotion.

Both schizophrenia and clinical depression are psychoses, and the sufferers are psychotic.

And psychotics are unable to function in the normal world.

Whereas neurotics may be unhappy but they can function in the normal world.
 
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ragashree

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And so naturally MBTI will remain, and the question is, how will I develop next?

This is an interesting topic to ponder in existential terms. Many of the more, shall we say, "enthusiastic" posters on here actually derive considerable meaning in their lives (which may otherwise lack it) by their ceasless reflections on the mechanisms of Mbti and their own personalities. I'm not sure if it's always a healthy way to gain this meaning (I am concerned that excessive navel-gazing tends to promote neurotic tendencies and reinforce existing ones), but it is one way of doing it which is at present working for them. Mbti even in these circumstances can help to provide a sense of purpose and reinforcement of self-identity, which in turn keeps the wolves of existential despair and feelings of futility at bay. Hopefully those who have nothing much else but Mbti to help them make sense of their lives (and I know there are some, I'm not trying to criticise them, just agknowledging the phenomenon) will eventually move on to develop a deeper and more fulfilling personal philosophy based on broader knowledge and more extensive awareness. Maybe Mbti is the catalyst for such people to at least start asking the right questions in a society that tends to repress and devalue individual identity, even if it ultimately is too limited (or, according to Victor, just plain wrong) to provide all the answers to the riddle of existence that they seek.

For you, Victor, I think the issue is a bit different. Obviously you don't extract much existential meaning from the actual Mbti philosophy, because you don't like it, that much is clear. However, being on this site criticising Mbti in your own inimitable manner appears to be quite an important part of your life, and presumably the sense the activity must confer on you of a righteous duty being fulfilled is giving you a sense of focus and meaning in your life. You additionally tend to do a lot of metaphysical and phillosophical questioning in your exchanges with people.

Perhaps you too are gaining meaning and identity now from your involvement with Mbti in a similar way to those who actually use it as a philosophy of life, but through an entirely different process that is the mirror image of theirs. You are obviously fulfilling some kind of need deep within yourself by being here, or you wouldn't continue to be. Perhaps in your case the questions you ask when criticising Mbti fulfil the same function as those others ask through Mbti, of developing your awareness and preparing you for the move to a more fulfilling philosophy that can allow you to create meaning in your life beyond it. It seems to me that you may be as essentially dependent on Mbti as its keenest adherents, and for the same existential reasons, though the process by which the dependence manifests is the converse of theirs. What do you think?
 

matmos

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Victor has a monkey on his back. But unlike many at this site who love their monkey, Victor dislikes his monkey. Maybe he used to like it, but not any more.

Ask a meth or heroin user, at what point did their love for the drug turn to hate?

There's your answer. The irony is that goldilocks has found her bed.;)
 

ragashree

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Victor has a monkey on his back. But unlike many at this site who love their monkey, Victor dislikes his monkey. Maybe he used to like it, but not any more.

Ask a meth or heroin user, at what point did their love for the drug turn to hate?

There's your answer. The irony is that goldilocks has found her bed.;)

Interesting and very valid point. This may be a lot of the reason why the disputes Victor has with people sometimes turn so personal, so quickly. I will criticise where I think criticism is due (and occasionally for fun ;)), but the amount of defensive hostility I see directed at some of Victor's posts startles me at times, though not as much as it fascinates me in terms of psychological process. Victor often seems to be primarily aiming to convince himself when he speaks, but the power this sometimes has to tap into the emotions of others and put them on the defensive is quite remarkable. Perhaps in your terms some do not like to be reminded of the presence of own monkeys...?
 
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