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  1. #71
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I'm ignorant because I don't agree with you? How incredibly Rosie O'Donnell of you.
    I'm just sick of having to accept and even venerate something that I really loathe, and always have, because media and people tells me to.
    How can men behaving like sissies and/or not being able to procreate due to psychological reasons possibly be a good thing?
    Seems like something bad to me, objectively speaking.

    On an emotional level, though, I think it's just freaking disgusting as well. Much like I think water is wet. It just is.

    I'm generally open to new ideas, i'm actually sort of progressive politically speaking, but I refuse to just follow when i think it's wrong.
    Don't assume that anyone is ignorant just because they don't happen to agree with you or most people.
    If anything, just gliding along agreeing with everyone can't exactly be viewed as being very enlightened.
    'Seems' and 'Objective' aren't words that go together. You are entirely commenting on your feeling on the matter, and this is how I disagree with you.

    You are implying that a male's value is entirely in reproduction. - disagree
    You are stating that Men who don't act like vikings are worthless. - disagree

    Explain why you think this. I can give reasons to back up why I disagree with you.

    I won't argue with you that you think homesexual sex is gross, because that's a feeling. And I agree with you, and that's what I'm not interested in it anymore than a gay male is interested in watching straight porn. But it's clear that the subject is more than just icky to you, it strikes a deeper chord.

    I don't think you can rationally back up your stance.

  2. #72
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    How can men behaving like sissies and/or not being able to procreate due to psychological reasons possibly be a good thing?
    Questions:
    - Does it have to be a good or bad thing? Why are you assigning moral value to a biological process?
    - Do all gays and lesbians act like sissies? Who defines what is a sissy? Is being a sissy good or bad, morally? Why or why not? Is there just one type of gay person, or a variety of them, just like with straight people? Is sissy a defining characteristic of gay? Who determines the social standard of what a man and a woman are supposed to look like?
    - Why is procreation being dragged into this? Is sexual activity that does not result in procreation necessarily wrong? Is birth control wrong? Why or why not? If people are sterile, are they damaged and their relationships ruined?
    - Does homosexuality come from a psychological source or is there a biological component? (We clearly have scientific precedent in other species that cross-gender sexual behavior can have a biological mechanism driving it. That's been known for how many decades now? Basic research, regardless of whether you accept it for human beings...)

    Personally, your emotional reactions to gay people don't concern me. They are what they are. We can't help our emotions. As you say, "On an emotional level, though, I think it's just freaking disgusting as well. Much like I think water is wet. It just is." Fine. I might have similar emotional reactions myself.

    I just see you reacting to emotions in kneejerk fashion rather than processing them as data and trying to sift through what they mean. Prejudice (not just in this area, but ANY area), racism, bigotry, and a whole host of social evils are driven primarily by people reacting primarily to their emotional impulses, rather than processing and critiquing them, to determine what to act on and what to set aside. That's what bothers me about the attitude I've typically seen here.

    Seems like something bad to me, objectively speaking.
    Please. It's not objective in the least, it's clearly emotional and SUBJECTIVE.

    Even your few "objective" points (such as the "sex w/o procreation") are habitually argued in other contexts (politics, religion, etc.) without people ever being able to agree.

    So if the strength of emotional impulse is what matters, which one of us gets to determine reality? You? Me? Someone else? What a load of bunk.

    You're going to have to make your case on something other than the degree of your emotional response.

    I'm generally open to new ideas, i'm actually sort of progressive politically speaking, but I refuse to just follow when i think it's wrong. If anything, just gliding along agreeing with everyone can't exactly be viewed as being very enlightened.[/
    Which is fine.

    I'd just like to see an actual argument, rather than the emotional lashing out.

    For some reason, you seem to think it's your conclusion that is attracting negativity to your opinion, where actually it's the process you use to reach your conclusion that seems to be creating offense. You can control that. You're a smart guy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #73
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I grew up in the rural western U.S. in a state where those attitudes are prevalent, but didn't experience directly. I am so sorry to hear that you have to live surrounded by such ignorance. I hope you can leave and not go back. I think you should write more about your experiences. The OP has an intriguing writing style that I think many people would appreciate in terms of content and writing style. I think you should write a book about your experiences there. I've found it the most perfect way to tell the world to F-off by turning its troubles into creative successes.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #74
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    People, you're using the oldest counter-arguments in the book. It's all fine, but you are blind.
    I won't argue with you, because there is no way that it will lead to any change in opinion.

    I have, on the other hand, tried to make myself see things your way. Not possible, even though I have tried the tolerant attitude most of my life.
    Some of what I wrote was deliberately misinterpreted, as usual. I'm just too tired of you to react on it.

    A sophist can argue any point and make it true.
    We are, even if we try to believe otherwise, animals.
    Some animals are strong and healthy, others aren't.
    Morals is an extension of our instincts to crack down on the unnatural and decadent and further what is good.
    Let's continue doing so, because it won't further human evolution to make that stuff okay.
    Humanity evolved through ever-changing climate and a need for adaption.
    The strong survived and the weak didn't get to procreate.
    Society today is different, even if it contains all the same stuff.
    All the stuff that was previously washed out gets a free pass nowadays due to surplus resources and comfort.
    This, however, leads to a slow decline in human strength because the weak get to influence us.
    It has all gotten to a point where strength of will and physical force are looked at with scorn.

    Where we before left the weak of our tribe in the woods to die, or threw them off the Tarpeian rock in Rome, we now take care of them and let them have children of their own.
    We let half-wits and weaklings dictate the terms of our existence instead of warriors.

    This isn't just about a bloody bag, I really don't care much about that crap, to be honest. Fashion changes.
    Biological and psychological weakness in humans, however, needs to be suppressed firmly and decisively.
    Attitudes needs an adjustment, there won't be plenty of everything for very long due to imminent over-population.
    That, on the other hand, will change us forever and most people who can't hack it will die anyway.

    In the long run, you can't stop nature. Trying to hinder human progress can temporarily screw up the machinery, though.
    This is my final reply to this thread. I still don't think you'll get what I am saying, but I really tried.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Biological and psychological weakness in humans, however, needs to be suppressed firmly and decisively.

  6. #76
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    I'm afraid I understand you all too well.

    What you just explained is picture book Social Darwinism. And that can lead to some pretty nasty stuff.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_..._controversies

    Not only that but, as has been said before, it is based on a shaky definition of "strong" and "healthy".
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  7. #77
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I'm going to give a short reply anyway. First, I don't see how orignality of an argument factors into anything. Second, almost all of your post was preinvalidated by Jennifer's post, if you had bothered to read it. Third, homosexuality is a trait that by proof of its own existence is a result of evolutionary 'forces'. Fourth, homosexuals currently, and through history have genetically propogated the species.

  8. #78
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Call it what you want, it is how it is, and most people are in dire need of a reality-check.
    Had to forget that I wasn't supposed to reply again, but it felt like a good idea ^^

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I'm ignorant because I don't agree with you? How incredibly Rosie O'Donnell of you.
    I'm just sick of having to accept and even venerate something that I really loathe, and always have, because media and people tells me to.
    How can men behaving like sissies and/or not being able to procreate due to psychological reasons possibly be a good thing?
    Seems like something bad to me, objectively speaking.
    On an emotional level, though, I think it's just freaking disgusting as well.
    You should go to intp central. The administration there are bigots and sexists just like you. They will receive you with open arms. You know. It's kinds stupid to spew this stuff on a diverse forum. You should take it where it belongs and is appreciated.

    It's probably awesome to rape a handicapped child if you are so inclined. Yeah, you should go by your emotions. Forget about critical thinking, it will ruin your feeling of superiority by abusing those 'of lesser worth' who have not done anything to you.

  10. #80
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    Ah, the classic "evolution is a moral theory" view, which goes hand in hand with "tradition makes right" view it seems.

    It's not correct to imply homosexuality is an evolutionary weakness, nor that the strong outlive the weak. The strong tend to outlive the weak, and their definitions are tautological as such, so who tends to survive is called strong, and who tends to die is called weak. As such, if homosexuals have tended to survive they fit the definition of "strong". If you use different definitions for those words, then there is no guarantee that the strong will beat the weak at all (as with most of Social Darwinism's definitions).

    If you want to derive your morality from such a system, I'd recommend you base it on more modern evolutionary advances. One where physical strength, health, endurance and genetic breeding capability are no longer the advantages they were, and where creativity has replaced manufacturing (which replaced manual labour) as the new driving force behind society, with memetic breeding replacing genetic breeding as the more advantageous form of reproduction (in terms of survival). If you do not adapt to that, you will likely fall to your own "moral" system and die out.

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