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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    From some of the literature I've been reading, the most common human experience is for the "heart" (actually, a ring of ganglia in the center of the chest) to be the subjectively perceived seat of one's consciousness, with the perceiving organs of the head understood as an extension of this. I find that interesting, because it would make sense outside of understanding the brain to be the center of cognition.

    In fact, it sort of illustrates how random and accidental evolution can be - why would the brain, one of the more immediately vital organs in the body, be placed in such a relatively exposed and vulnerable position? Wouldn't it make more sense to be in a safer and more protected area?
    Did the nerves develop first, then the brain developed in proximity to the most areas of sensitive nerves of all types?

    In some ways it might seem smarter to put the brain in the middle of the body... but I don't think things evolve like that. That's more the strategy one would use if there was an intelligent designer doing a blueprint of the finished work to begin with, then figuring out where the "safest place" for the nerve center would be in that finalized predesigned product.

    In this case, the brain seems to be closest to the intersection of nerves that inadvertently specialized (sight, sound, taste, etc.) into something useful.

    Evolution's funny. I think the optic nerves actually run into the eye and then back out than directly out from it; there's a huge chunk of creatures for which this is true ... but not all. Not exactly the best design, but you're stuck with it if it worked and if upgrades to that area did not offer any better survival odds.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrappingYoungLad View Post
    Often between the ears.
    Sometimes between the legs.
    Well, only for about half of the human species.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    From some of the literature I've been reading, the most common human experience is for the "heart" (actually, a ring of ganglia in the center of the chest) to be the subjectively perceived seat of one's consciousness, with the perceiving organs of the head understood as an extension of this. I find that interesting, because it would make sense outside of understanding the brain to be the center of cognition.

    In fact, it sort of illustrates how random and accidental evolution can be - why would the brain, one of the more immediately vital organs in the body, be placed in such a relatively exposed and vulnerable position? Wouldn't it make more sense to be in a safer and more protected area?
    I've read about this just recently too. According to Jung, ancient ("pre-philosophical") man localized his soul to the area of the diaphragm (in Greek means phren, or mind) and the heart. It was the first philosophers that identified reason and emotions to come from the head. Supposedly primitive peoples still "think with their hearts."
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  3. #13
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    But to answer your question, (good question, btw!) for me it is my solar plexus mostly.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  4. #14
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Did the nerves develop first, then the brain developed in proximity to the most areas of sensitive nerves of all types?

    In some ways it might seem smarter to put the brain in the middle of the body... but I don't think things evolve like that. That's more the strategy one would use if there was an intelligent designer doing a blueprint of the finished work to begin with, then figuring out where the "safest place" for the nerve center would be in that finalized predesigned product.

    In this case, the brain seems to be closest to the intersection of nerves that inadvertently specialized (sight, sound, taste, etc.) into something useful.

    Evolution's funny. I think the optic nerves actually run into the eye and then back out than directly out from it; there's a huge chunk of creatures for which this is true ... but not all. Not exactly the best design, but you're stuck with it if it worked and if upgrades to that area did not offer any better survival odds.
    Yeah, precisely that. It kinda gets back to that thing tesla and I were arguing about a few weeks ago - traits aren't selected for, genes are selected against. If something's good enough, it sticks around.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I've read about this just recently too. According to Jung, ancient ("pre-philosophical") man localized his soul to the area of the diaphragm (in Greek means phren, or mind) and the heart. It was the first philosophers that identified reason and emotions to come from the head. Supposedly primitive peoples still "think with their hearts."
    Yup.

    So why the solar plexus? A chunk of people don't even know what that is. (I can take some guesses, but it's more informative to have you explain. )
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I've read about this just recently too. According to Jung, ancient ("pre-philosophical") man localized his soul to the area of the diaphragm (in Greek means phren, or mind) and the heart. It was the first philosophers that identified reason and emotions to come from the head. Supposedly primitive peoples still "think with their hearts."
    I have a guess as to why this may be. "Reasoning" consciousness, that is, the one between your eyes, is the one that comes out when your body's spiked with norepinephrine. What that means is that since you're in a life-or-death situation, your sensing organs take much higher precedence in your cognitive prioritization scheme. Because of this, your brain will focus on your head as being the most "you" part of your body.

    "Emotional" consciousness, that is, the one in your heart, is the one that you're naturally attuned to when your body's spiked with oxytocin. The primary effect of this neurochemical is to make you feel relaxed and bonded with others. At this point, your mechanisms for social bonding, such as mirror neurons and other functions, take the highest prioritization in your brain. Since an oxytocin flood is perceived more greatly in that ganglial ring in the center of one's body, your brain focuses on your heart as being the most "you" part of your body.

  7. #17
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yup.

    So why the solar plexus? A chunk of people don't even know what that is. (I can take some guesses, but it's more informative to have you explain. )
    Surely everyone knows where your solar plexus is>? Okay, my gut, but high. When I feel bad, I feel sick there; and when I feel really good, I feel tension there; excitement. Sometimes that's how I can tell if something is bothering me; sometimes I don't know it until my body tells me, yet my Si is not my worst function, I don't think. Se is.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I have a guess as to why this may be. "Reasoning" consciousness, that is, the one between your eyes, is the one that comes out when your body's spiked with norepinephrine. What that means is that since you're in a life-or-death situation, your sensing organs take much higher precedence in your cognitive prioritization scheme. Because of this, your brain will focus on your head as being the most "you" part of your body.
    But fight or flight infuses your limbs with adrenaline, which feels mightily powerful. I've never noticed that my head feels anything. You do? Furthermore, your heart is very sensitive to adrenaline, so you can immediately feel it beating harder and faster; so much so that you have to breathe harder and faster too.

    "Emotional" consciousness, that is, the one in your heart, is the one that you're naturally attuned to when your body's spiked with oxytocin. The primary effect of this neurochemical is to make you feel relaxed and bonded with others. At this point, your mechanisms for social bonding, such as mirror neurons and other functions, take the highest prioritization in your brain. Since an oxytocin flood is perceived more greatly in that ganglial ring in the center of one's body, your brain focuses on your heart as being the most "you" part of your body.
    The link between physical and psychical is intriguing for sure. Take the stomach. I've read that the stomach in animals is linked to the feeling of well-being through primitive mechanisms, perhaps a throw-back to stave off starvation. For example, babies like to nurse when they feel scared or bad or sick. Eating for many gives physical feelings of pleasure; hence one of the huge problems we have in our abundant culture; obesity.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  8. #18
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Upon further reflection, I must add that when I am hard at thought, which I have been lately, I do things like cradle my head, close my eyes, stare off into space, and basically forget about my body. So I'd have to say in those times when I am 'thinking' I feel my consciousness in my head, no doubt. However, most of the time I feel it in my solar plexus, and this I attribute to my 'feeling' function, and it being superior to my thinking function, although my Fe and Te are nearly equal on functions tests, etc. I'm not sure where I feel my intuition working. Perhaps it's outside of me.........?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #19
    Senior Member milkyway2's Avatar
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    in my mind deeeeep inside my mind

  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    From some of the literature I've been reading, the most common human experience is for the "heart" (actually, a ring of ganglia in the center of the chest) to be the subjectively perceived seat of one's consciousness, with the perceiving organs of the head understood as an extension of this. I find that interesting, because it would make sense outside of understanding the brain to be the center of cognition.

    In fact, it sort of illustrates how random and accidental evolution can be - why would the brain, one of the more immediately vital organs in the body, be placed in such a relatively exposed and vulnerable position? Wouldn't it make more sense to be in a safer and more protected area?
    Fun fact-your gut actually has more neurons than any other part of your body except your brain.

    seat? With Te-directly behind my eyes. With Fi...

    With Fi it starts in my palms, my chest, my neck, my mouth. Thus when I want to romantically connect with another, I have a distinct urge to taste them. ie-kissing. But my head sort of ends at my mouth. Yup. Weird.

    As for evolution-all advanced animals exhibit bilateral symmetry. The question is-why was it not selected against?

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