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  1. #51
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Nothing.
    Okay, then can you stop showing up and complaining that my posts are inconsistent with previous posts that were based on interpretations I have openly admitted were wrong?

    I mean, really...I don't think you'd prefer that I just refuse to ever revise any of my ideas, would you?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #52
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Okay, then can you stop showing up and complaining that my posts are inconsistent with previous posts that were based on interpretations I have openly admitted were wrong?


  3. #53
    Pumpernickel
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    I think the point is that you stubbornly and emotionally argue some ridiculous unfounded idea and then change your mind afterward without a) taking any responsibility for what you said, and b) taking the hint and learning for future reference to stop and think about what you are saying beforehand, and whether there is just the slightest chance it may be retarded.



    On a different note...

    Consider that you may be a dominant F type.

  4. #54
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    I think the point is that you stubbornly and emotionally argue some ridiculous unfounded idea and then change your mind afterward without a) taking any responsibility for what you said, and b) taking the hint and learning for future reference to stop and think about what you are saying beforehand, and whether there is just the slightest chance it may be retarded.
    Often, when I am considering an idea and uncertain of whether or not it really holds up, I can learn more about it by arguing from the perspective of that idea and seeing if anyone else is able to find something wrong with it.

    Sometimes the idea turns out to be bad and I abandon it and move on to a different one. Sometimes there's a problem with it that I hadn't noticed and it takes arguing it out with others to figure that out. I think all of this is pretty typical ENTP. For extroverted perception, part of the idea evaluation process involves finding out what others think about it and testing it out against people who oppose it.

    I know Jaguar thinks arguing for positions that one doesn't necessarily support is ridiculous, but it's part of the way EPs evaluate ideas and you'd think that by now he'd at least expect me to be doing it, instead of quoting my discarded ideas 600 times as if he expects me to support them all the way to my deathbed.

    I guess "support everything you've ever said to your deathbed" is associated with some kind of Fi honor thing. From a Te perspective, I imagine it looks flaky and disingenuous. "Why can't he figure out what he thinks for sure before arguing it with people?" Well, because sometimes other people introduce a perspective I didn't notice on my own and that forces me to reevaluate my idea.

    It's in the EP's nature to experiment with things before we know for sure if they work. The process of experimenting with them (by trying them out, arguing in their favor, etc.) is a crucial part of finding out whether or not we really want to support them.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    On a different note...

    Consider that you may be a dominant F type.
    Nah, just tertiary Fe. Same reason thatgirl strikes some people as ESTP (ENTJ's teritary Se.) I find that a number of people seem to use forums to vent tertiary functions.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #55
    Pumpernickel
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Often, when I am considering an idea and uncertain of whether or not it really holds up, I can learn more about it by arguing from the perspective of that idea and seeing if anyone else is able to find something wrong with it.
    There's the mature way to discuss(argue?) an idea and then there is the SimulatedWorld way. Just a thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    Nah, just tertiary Fe. Same reason thatgirl strikes some people as ESTP (ENTJ's teritary Se.)
    Uh... no.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I know Jaguar thinks arguing for positions that one doesn't necessarily support is ridiculous, but it's part of the way EPs evaluate ideas and you'd think that by now he'd at least expect me to be doing it, instead of quoting my discarded ideas 600 times as if he expects me to support them all the way to my deathbed.

    All EPs aren't flakes who change their mind 72 times an hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Uh... no.
    Looks like he changed his mind, yet again.

  7. #57
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    There's the mature way to discuss(argue?) an idea and then there is the SimulatedWorld way. Just a thought.
    Arguing hypothetical positions that one may not actually support is typically associated with ENTPs. Think about it from a functional perspective...

    Ti considers the idea and comes up with what may be an explanation for it. But since Ti is totally internal, and the ENTP is an extrovert, Ne needs to go and experiment with the idea externally (often by arguing it with people who oppose it) in order to learn about its potential flaws and allow Ti to make a decision as to how to ultimately evaluate it.

    Te, since it values having objective certainty and a clear cut plan of action, finds this flighty, inconsistent, hypocritical, etc. Most ENTPs I know don't tend to get along well with ENTJs and this is one major reason for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Uh... no.
    Excellent rebuttal. You're right; I'm ESFJ.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    All EPs aren't flakes who change their mind 72 times an hour.
    There are really only a few issues in my ideas about typology that I've actually made major changes to, and they've occurred over about 16 months on the forum, not one hour.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Looks like he changed his mind, yet again.
    Well, yeah. I thought she was ESTP based on the information I had; I interacted with her and got more information, and decided my previous conclusion had been incorrect.

    This is a really common J criticism of Ps, by the way. I'm not saying it's without merit, but it's worth taking into consideration that we approach evaluating ideas in very different ways.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #58
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Arguing hypothetical positions that one may not actually support is typically associated with ENTPs.
    Way to go, blaming 4 letters for your nonsense.
    "Hey, I'm an unreliable flake! It's normal for an ENTP to have no depth or substance!"

    Rubbish.

    decided my previous conclusion had been incorrect.
    So is that one.

  9. #59
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Way to go, blaming 4 letters for your nonsense.
    "Hey, I'm an unreliable flake! It's normal for an ENTP to have no depth or substance!"

    Rubbish.
    Well, why does playing devil's advocate necessitate having no depth or substance?

    I don't know about you, but for me, taking a position and trying to come up with a justification for it is a useful thought exercise that helps me to consider different ways of looking at an issue. I think of it like a court of law: I can't fully dismiss an idea until I've tried to put myself in its shoes and see if I can make it work in an argument against someone who opposes it. (Not to mention, it's just fun to explore the different angles.)

    Sometimes the idea ends up being wrong, but I don't really know until I try. Ti is isolated from outside influence and so Ne's experimentation with how others will respond to the idea is often the only effective way of incorporating any external influence into decision-making.

    I can see why, from a TeFi perspective, this creates a lack of integrity. But I don't really see it that way...it's just part of the process of evaluating ideas.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #60
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto
    Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off

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