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  1. #21
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Translation: "ENTJs are better than everyone, moron."
    Cloud, is that you?

    They're descriptions of the bases from which people construct their worldviews.
    Now you are claiming jungian functions lead to world views.
    How about the type of pizza people order, or the brand of tampon a woman buys?

  2. #22
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    Yes we all use every function on occasion; some are just used much less frequently than people think.
    Didn't you say you can't "use Se"? What happened?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Didn't you say you can't "use Se"? What happened?
    C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-O-N.

  4. #24
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    Didn't you say you can't "use Se"? What happened?
    I did say that at one point, but I've revised my theory since then. I thought I had explained this.

    After reading more about it, I now believe that we do occasionally use the shadow functions, just that "using" them is a misleading term because it implies that performing a certain action = using a certain function. "Using" a function means seeing from the perspective of that style of cognition...not just performing some action or another.

    If I do something because I feel that responding according to immediate surface perceptions in order to make the strongest sensory impact is the best way to go about it, then Se has motivated me to do it. Se is a way of orienting your relationship to the outer world.

    However, just looking up and seeing what's in front of me doesn't constitute "using" Se or any particular function. Everybody does that all the time. I am not using Se unless I'm actually orienting myself according to the Se style of perception, which, as I said, is difficult for a natural Ne dom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-O-N.
    I take full responsibility for the mistakes in my previous 4-function model. I no longer believe that shadow functions are never used. I now believe that those perspectives can be accessed at times, just that it requires temporarily breaking from the preferred ones and is thus significantly more difficult and less common.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Now you are claiming jungian functions lead to world views.
    How about the type of pizza people order, or the brand of tampon a woman buys?
    I don't understand the connection.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #25
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    I wish they hadn't gone with J for judging and P for perceiving in MBTI. It just doesn't correlate to that except to show a function order. I guess it's hard to put meaning to it though without having a descriptive label like judging vs perceiving, but the whole J is a judger and likes to make lists and create structure, whereas P is better able to go with the flow, is more than a bit oversimplified. If my Fi is sparked I see no reason to believe I couldn't Se procrastinate my way through something while formulating smart quick plans.

    But then again Socionics considers Ni, Si, Se, and Ne to be data gathering functions (and I believe it makes more sense to say this than MBTI); Ti, Fi, Te, Fe are action filters. In this way anyone dominate in Ni, Si, Se, or Ne are perceivers (hence the J/P switch with introverts).

    But I also wonder if that really makes much more sense since you can look at an ENTJ for instance and see that they are using Te actions first and foremost with Ni to back it up. I would gather an ENTJ might be a better procrastinator in this regard than an ESTP that focuses more on taking in the interactions of their environment and then acting on them by reaching structured judgments about what's going on. It really becomes a question of which is more successful in their dealings with their world. The one that is more successful will be deemed a better perceiver, I suppose.

    In retrospect, I hate how it is so hard for me to convince myself of anything.

    Edit: I suppose the more I think about typology, the more I realize the intuiting preference in people probably does deserve the often attached connotation of 'visionary'.

  6. #26
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Cloud, is that you?



    Now you are claiming jungian functions lead to world views.
    How about the type of pizza people order, or the brand of tampon a woman buys?
    I think "world-view" is a misnomer. Replace with cognitive orientation. It's how they orient themselves.

    When you say that your archetype dictates your worldview, you also say that it dictates your preferences, your belief systems... namely your culture and every inkling of understanding you have about yourself and the universe.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I did say that at one point, but I've revised my theory since then.
    Solitary Walker, is that you?
    Both of you have a really bad habit of making ignorant statements in this forum, and when someone calls you out on your bullshit, you say:

    "I've revised my theory since then."

    Just think, Sim, someone could say: "All blacks rob banks."
    And when someone beats the hell out of them, they can claim they've "revised their theory since then."

  8. #28
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Solitary Walker, is that you?
    Both of you have a really bad habit of making ignorant statements in this forum, and when someone calls you out on your bullshit, you say:

    "I've revised my theory since then."

    Just think, Sim, someone could say: "All blacks rob banks."
    And when someone beats the hell out of them, they can claim they've "revised their theory since then."
    Would you prefer that we stick dogmatically to our past mistakes and refuse to learn? I don't understand what's so bad about revising one's theory.

    Isn't that how learning in general works? Haven't you ever expressed an idea and realized later that it was incorrect?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tater Typhoon View Post
    I think "world-view" is a misnomer. Replace with cognitive orientation. It's how they orient themselves.

    When you say that your archetype dictates your worldview, you also say that it dictates your preferences, your belief systems... namely your culture and every inkling of understanding you have about yourself and the universe.
    Perhaps your dominance in an introverted function comes into play here. Introverted functions orient the self's internal standards, and extroverted ones orient our relationship to the outer world.

    Quote Originally Posted by dictionary.com
    world∑view (wŻrld'vy??')
    n.

    1.

    The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
    2.

    A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.
    I'm going more with the latter definition here. Archetypes do tend to lead to certain ways of conceptualizing ourselves and our relationships to the outer world, and the best way to navigate life and various situations. This would qualify as "a collection of beliefs."
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #29
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Would you prefer that we stick dogmatically to our past mistakes and refuse to learn? I don't understand what's so bad about revising one's theory.

    Isn't that how learning in general works? Haven't you ever expressed an idea and realized later that it was incorrect?

    Whatever it is you think you're selling, I'm not buying.

  10. #30
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Whatever it is you think you're selling, I'm not buying.
    I have a hard time communicating with you because any time I try to just speak frankly and openly with you, you presume I'm somehow trying to cheat or mislead you.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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