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Stereotypes: Based on fact or ignorance?

simulatedworld

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It could come from not understanding, if one person can look at another and misinterpret X to mean Y and create a basis to stereotype all people in that group of people, then why is it that a group of people couldn't do the same and therefore create a stereotype based on their perspective which is based on misunderstanding?

Most stereotypes are based on clearly observable characteristics that can't easily be misinterpreted. In order for what you describe to happen, people from the demographic in question would have to give a false impression of the stereotyped characteristic often enough to generate a widespread stereotype about them, which seems unlikely.

If it's truly a mistaken perception on the part of observers, that mistake is unlikely to be widespread enough to generate a stereotype with absolutely no basis in reality.

There are probably exceptions to this, like the "blondes are stupid" thing, because intelligence obviously has no correlation with hair color. So, you have a point that this might happen sometimes, but most stereotypes are based on some small grain of truth.

So stereotypes are based on a grain of truth and they're more likely to be true for people of that group than other groups? Sounds like they're based on more than just a "grain of truth" if they cover that group more than any other comparable group.

Not really. Example: Males under 20 drive too fast. If you had to pick one demographic group that drives too fast more often than any other, it'd be males under 20, but it may not even be true for most males under 20.

But the fact that it's true for people from that demographic more often than it is for people from any comparable demographic means there's a grain of truth there. It's still only a grain because it's probably not true of a majority of people in that demographic--but enough people from that demographic do it to create the impression of a well-known stereotype.
 

Fluffywolf

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Didn't read the whole topic.

Obviously, from a logical point of view, stereotypes don't 'exist'. I could argue that fact in a thousand different ways, but I'll try not to be a bigot..

So, when we look at it from another perspective, we know that it's a fact that what we see, we do. We are a 'herd animal' species. Nothing wrong with that, keeps things in check, sadly creates some pretty big rifts between different people, but on the other side, it gives people a place to belong.

It's not unthinkable that this is the source of stereotyping.

We adapt the use of stereotyping into our repertoire in order to choose and belong, and create an understanding that makes one group different from another. Actual fact isn't as important anymore. We just like to put people in a categories we want to attach ourselves to and categories we want to stay away from. Naturally, this process shouldn't be too time consuming, so we rush to our conclusions without much thought, and make our allegiances. For this reason, stereotyping isn't typically accurate. But it is effective.

So as a means of picking out your herd, you stereotype. I don't think anyone avoids this, and I don't think this method of stereotyping is inherently bad. It's flawed, but without it, the world would definatly be a lot more chaotic.

In that sense, stereotypes definatly exist and are of importance, as our own creations, for our own benefit.

Now people just need to develop some common sense...

Develop a common sense, take your stereotypes and add some solidarity to them. Presto! Suddenly, stereotyping isn't a bad thing. And all we need to do is mix some things up.
 

William K

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But the fact that it's true for people from that demographic more often than it is for people from any comparable demographic means there's a grain of truth there.

Where are the people who start and perpetuate this stereotype getting that fact from? Are there statistical research published somewhere that says "Males under 20 drive too fast compared to males of other ages"?
 

simulatedworld

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Where are the people who start and perpetuate this stereotype getting that fact from? Are there statistical research published somewhere that says "Males under 20 drive too fast compared to males of other ages"?

Yes, that's why auto insurance is the most expensive for this demographic.
 

Salomé

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Most stereotypes are based on clearly observable characteristics that can't easily be misinterpreted. In order for what you describe to happen, people from the demographic in question would have to give a false impression of the stereotyped characteristic often enough to generate a widespread stereotype about them, which seems unlikely.

If it's truly a mistaken perception on the part of observers, that mistake is unlikely to be widespread enough to generate a stereotype with absolutely no basis in reality.

There are probably exceptions to this, like the "blondes are stupid" thing, because intelligence obviously has no correlation with hair color. So, you have a point that this might happen sometimes, but most stereotypes are based on some small grain of truth.
What about racial stereotypes? What about "blacks are stupid and subhuman and deserve to be slaves"? Grain of truth?
"Jews are filthy, greedy and corrupt and deserve to be exterminated" Grain of truth?
"Americans are fat, boorish, parochial and idiotic". Grain of truth?
 

Spamtar

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What about racial stereotypes? What about "blacks are stupid and subhuman and deserve to be slaves"? Grain of truth?
"Jews are filthy, greedy and corrupt and deserve to be exterminated" Grain of truth?
"Americans are fat, boorish, parochial and idiotic". Grain of truth?

Maybe its in the translation of where grain of truth can be lost

Perhaps because of social and economic issues blacks statistically have not received the same amount of formal as a group of as whites. Thus they were deemed less intelligent especially by racists who wanted any reason to call them names.

Perhaps because of culture and surviving adversity the Jewish people are better with finances and getting the most for their money than other cultures.

Who's parochial?!?:steam:
 

Salomé

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Perhaps because of social and economic issues blacks statistically have not received the same amount of formal as a group of as whites. Thus they were deemed less intelligent especially by racists who wanted any reason to call them names.

Perhaps because of culture and surviving adversity the Jewish people are better with finances and getting the most for their money than other cultures.
I find the lack of historical context here pretty shockingly ignorant.
I'm talking about stereotypes *invented* to justify the enslavement of Africans and the extermination of the Jews.

Read some history, then tell me that stereotypes have a basis in truth.
 

Spamtar

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Sure they are invented like everything else. Yet in order for inventions to have staying power the most inventions whould based on some distortion of a fact as opposed to some out of the blue fabrication. If you are saying that Hitler killed the Jews because he thought they were cheap, then I would say you are misinformed. See Making Sense of Jewish Stereotypes
 

Spamtar

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Ditto, now you know how it feels.
 

Salomé

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To argue with people who know nothing?
I've had plenty of experience on this board. You needn't have tried to say something stupid, you do just fine when you're not even trying.
 

Spamtar

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Stereotyping in general is bad, lazy and flawed. It is a tool of the ignorant yet it is too simplistic to indicate that it is utterly devoid of some factual seedling. It is a good reminder when we get into generalizing too much that stereotyping is just another form of generalizing. Generalizing can be a convenient cognitive matrix yet too often is it used simply because most people don't like to think.
 

simulatedworld

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What about racial stereotypes? What about "blacks are stupid and subhuman and deserve to be slaves"? Grain of truth?
"Jews are filthy, greedy and corrupt and deserve to be exterminated" Grain of truth?
"Americans are fat, boorish, parochial and idiotic". Grain of truth?

I don't think "Blacks are subhuman and deserve to be slaves" is a very common stereotype outside of very small extremist circles.

But it is a statistical fact that the average black has a lower IQ than the average person of other ethnic groups. (Obviously that doesn't mean there aren't smart black people, etc.)

Jews actually are one of the most affluent ethnic groups as well, by numbers. As far as filthy/greedy/whatever, those are exaggerations, but again--the grain of truth is that Jews, on average, do have more money than most other ethnic groups.

As for Americans, a lot of us really do tend to act like complete idiots, especially when outside the country, and a lot of us really are completely oblivious to the fact that anything non-American might ever have any value at all. There has certainly been a rash of retarded pro-American blind nationalism, especially since 9/11.

Are any of these true in a majority cases? Probably not. Are the especially hateful ones hugely exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous? Yes. Are they based on grains of truth? Yes--otherwise those perceptions wouldn't exist at all.
 

Salomé

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Are the especially hateful ones hugely exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous? Yes. Are they based on grains of truth? Yes--otherwise those perceptions wouldn't exist at all.
That's funny because I had a perception of you as being reasonably bright. And it seems not to have been based on anything substantial at all.
 
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Ginkgo

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If a man thinks he's a King, he'll crown himself.

If the King thinks you're a pauper, he'll treat you like one.

If you are treated like a pauper, you will start to clean chimneys.

So we inevitably create our own stereotypes, and they exacerbate themselves when the next generation claims historicity.

If history makes the world, then the world makes history in its own turn.

What are you going to make of it?
 

simulatedworld

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That's funny because I had a perception of you as being reasonably bright. And it seems not to have been based on anything substantial at all.

Awww, don't give up on me just yet.

Think about this: Where do stereotypes come from in the first place? What leads to a popular perception? What causes jokes based on stereotypes to spread and survive?

For instance, let's say I made a joke implying that gay men have horrible fashion sense. Would this joke spread? If I told it to a lot of people and plastered it around the internet, would anyone bother repeating it?

No, because virtually nobody perceives gay men as having bad fashion sense. In order for a stereotype to even become a well-known stereotype in the first place, a significant portion of the population has to believe it has some sort of vague foundation in reality.

So, then we get to the question Trinity asked, which is: "What if that widespread perception is mistaken?" And she has a good point, because often this is the case...but reputations aren't just assigned randomly and out of thin air. If enough people believe something that it becomes embedded into our collective cultural consciousness, there's probably some reason for it--even if it's become distorted and grossly exaggerated over time.

As stated above, for example: It's clearly not true that all males under 20 are reckless speed demons who are way too stupid to be trusted with motor vehicles. Unfortunately, enough males under 20 (as compared to other demographics) actually do tend to drive somewhat recklessly that this stereotypical perception has worked its way into the collective consciousness. If very few males under 20 actually drove recklessly, this stereotype would never have existed in the first place.

So as time goes on, the stereotype gets exaggerated more and more and eventually we end up with a ridiculous mess of nonsense: "Males under 20 are absolute idiots behind the wheel! We should raise the driving age to 21!" and so on and so forth...so when all is said and done, we often end up with a stereotype that's ridiculous and inaccurate...but it had to come from somewhere. That's why I use the phrase "grain of truth"--there's usually a little tiny bit of truth that gets blown out of proportion into an absurd and nonsensical caricature of the original meaning.

Let me be clear: I do believe it's wrong to assume traits about any given individual based on stereotypes, or to treat someone unfairly because of these stereotypes. I'm absolutely not advocating discrimination.

But I don't think many highly popular stereotypes just materialize into widespread cultural consciousness out of nowhere with absolutely no basis for them. Why do you never hear anyone stereotyping gay men as having bad fashion sense?
 
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Ginkgo

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Jews first practiced usury during the Middle Ages, so they became widely discriminated against by the Christians because they bled the aristocracy dry of money. This is where the stereotype came from.

Blacks were tribal and "savage", though not unwilling to barter with European slave traders. Of course, slavery existed long before Americanized agricultural slavery; justified by other means such as mutiny and going against the state. So Americanized slavery was the biproduct of isolated nationalism and ethnic bigotry, but in order to subdue a population, it is best to strip them of their educational rights. So the stereotype of "the dumb African American" perpetuated itself; though IQ measurements do present a contrast. And they will present a contrast. Anyone who honestly thinks that they will somehow equalize across the board should stop knocking on wood so much; you'll break your knuckles eventually. Now, IQ has been shown to correlate with socio-economic status and other environmental factors as well; and black males are the highest number represented in the U.S. prison systems. What can you infer from this?

And you know, sometimes people "make" the stereotype that blonde women have more sex. Where did this "conjecture" come from? Well, a blonde chick probably got laid alot and news permeated throughout the "hive-mind", if you will. In fact, blonde women are statistically more fertile than other women.

To think that these stereotypes come from some fantasy land is to also say that common knowledge comes from a fantasy land as well. Sometimes it is revised, rechecked, or disproved, but nevertheless, there is almost always a reason behind our assumptions.
 

simulatedworld

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^ That was a really well thought-out post that got across a lot of what I was trying to say more effectively than I was able to. Thanks.
 
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Ginkgo

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Americans are generally viewed as loud and obnoxious in European countries; often because they are ignorant of traditional social customs and mannerisms. They tend to view the whole world as a theme park when they are on vacation. They are also the most significantly obese and the most abundant in foodstuffs because their advertisements are geared toward presenting exaggerated products. External stimuli induces hunger in overweight people, while internal stimuli induces hunger in healthy weighted people. The entire culture swings on the centrifuge of consumerism; and their tax dollars are far too often being devoted toward armaments and over-seas military funds, rather than focusing on education like India does. I've spoken with many foreign exchange students who say that all American students do is drone on, asking impertinent and doltish questions about geography, international politics, like "LOLZ Do YoU HAs MCDoNAlD'S in EuROpE".

This is the general stereotype. This is not representative of all Americans. This is a projection. I am American. *
 

simulatedworld

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^ Right. The stereotype clearly doesn't describe all or even most Americans, so saying "Americans are stupid and boorish" is inaccurate, but it still had to come from somewhere.
 
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