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  1. #11
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Stereotypes are often distorted, but almost always based on real statistical rules.
    Almost always, isn't the same as always. I agree that many stereotypes are based on something real and adds to the reason people believe it, but not always. I think the next part is why:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Stereotypes can go awry when the context is mangled, which often happens when one culture observes another.
    If a stereotype isn't relevant to us, or people we know, it's based on assumptions which can easily be distorted and misunderstood. Hence why a stereotype could have no factual base at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    We have to define what a Stereotype is. I believe it's suppose to be a neutral term. Is a split-second stereotype based on misunderstanding, a stereotype? "All stereotypes are based on some truths or facts". The problem is the "All". Stereotypes can be based on some truths or facts. But some can entirely be normal errors of understanding. for example, "Humans live forever" is a stereotype I developed when I was a kid. That's an error. But then the question is, does it count as a stereotype?
    I don't consider that a stereotype, more an individuals personal view, if a view is held by an individual it's more a bias/belief/judgement etc.

    I'd go with: "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups, or types of individuals"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Both fact and ignorance. Ignoring some key parts of a fact usually.
    Always?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iriohm Bladewalker View Post
    I would say no. Some stereotypes are, tis true, but the most harmful (i.e. the most stereotypical, pun intended maybe) are often based more on observation than fact, but that's already been said.
    I'd agree with you. I think there are also stereotypes that are based on a lack of observation which leads to the commonly held view of A being associated with B and turned into a stereotype because people don't understand the difference and B is seen more often.

    Which leads onto the next question of why would someone want to strictly believe that all stereotypes are based on some truth?

  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    lol so this is about stereotypes in general..... sorry about the little SFP crusade above..

    ok, so... there's a stereotype of asian men having small dicks, for example. or being pushovers and overly "polite". not true in the slightest, because if anyone said that, i'd shove my dick up their ass. now first of all, it'd be big enough for them to feel and probably cry about - second, most people would agree that assraping someone isn't a very "polite" thing to do. on top of that, i wouldn't be the pushover in that situation.

    if you don't like the vulgarity, sorry. just trying to make a point. which is "welcome to the real world. stereotypes don't exist here."

    p.s. i also suck at math and ping pong.

  3. #13
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Sure it's hard to apply a negative stereotype on a person that you get to know, especially if you like them.

    But the question isn't are there people who don't fit a stereotype without invalidating the idea that there is some truth behind it ie "gay men are promiscuous", Bob is a gay man, Bob isn't promiscuous, George is also a gay man, George is a promiscuous manhoe. The stereotype in that case can fit your explanation of just enough truth to work and not enough truth to be fair, but what about all other stereotypes, do they all have truth behind it for it for all stereotypes to be considered based on some truth?

    The claim I disagree with is "all stereotypes are based on some truth, or they wouldn't be stereotypes".
    ah ok. Then I would say that you have a mistake there. The correct a phrase is:

    "all stereotypes are based on some opinion, or they wouldn't be stereotypes"

    Of course opinion and truth are of different caliber. And to me, truth depends on how many people agree to that opinion. This also includes the hard sciences (yes, science can be wrong and has been wrong many times)

    So to characterize a stereotype based on some fundamental truth, no matter how minuscule it is, is a misplacement and a misthought. It's ultimately an opinion, it's true for at least one person and one perspective.

  4. #14
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    based on facts and ignorance

  5. #15
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    I'd go with: "A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups, or types of individuals"
    "All stereotypes are based on some truths or facts."

    "based on some truths or facts." Is common belief from observation fact?

    Fact/Truth is a flexible term. Is there Fact in anything? What is Fact?

    Example:

    "White Americans are pale-skinned." Does this stereotype qualify as based on fact? How is anything "based on some facts."?

    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    ah ok. Then I would say that you have a mistake there. The correct a phrase is:

    "all stereotypes are based on some opinion, or they wouldn't be stereotypes"

    Of course opinion and truth are of different caliber. And to me, truth depends on how many people agree to that opinion. This also includes the hard sciences (yes, science can be wrong and has been wrong many times)

    So to characterize a stereotype based on some fundamental truth, no matter how minuscule it is, is a misplacement and a misthought. It's ultimately an opinion, it's true for at least one person and one perspective.
    Well said.

  6. #16
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Well, it really depends on what type of stereotype you're offering.

    If it's rooted in, say, some observed phenomenon (as in "men are physically stronger than women", or "women typically have more fat on their bodies than men"), I think it's not as much a statement of generalization as it is a pronouncement of observed fact - in this case, empirical biology.
    When you're diagramming behavioral patterns in human behavior (say, "fat people eat more than do skinny people", or "women gossip more than men"), you're dealing with a subjective framework that doesn't necessarily encompass your offered data sets. Instead it deals more with an impression of personal opinion, and is probably of little real statistical value.

    Consequently, it's not always accurate to presume that overweight people consume more than do their non-overweight counterparts. Or, that men gossip less than women. On the other hand, it is reasonable to assume that men invariably maintain an advantage in physical strength or that women have a higher concentration of fat cells in their bodies.

    The difference is in how/where you compile your data. If you're using credible resources, your statements are less likely to be a problem.


    As a final note, tact is helpful - how you state your opinions is often as important as the data itself.

  7. #17
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    Of course opinion and truth are of different caliber. And to me, truth depends on how many people agree to that opinion.
    Argumentum ad populum.
    Nothing to do with truth. Earth didn't suddenly become a sphere when people stopped believing it was flat. The masses just became a little wiser.
    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Well, it really depends on what type of stereotype you're offering.

    If it's rooted in, say, some observed phenomenon (as in "men are physically stronger than women", or "women typically have more fat on their bodies than men"), I think it's not as much a statement of generalization as it is a pronouncement of observed fact - in this case, empirical biology.
    Disagree. Such 'observed facts' are still subjective. Still rooted in personal, rather than global experience. Still coloured by disorders of perception.

    As soon as something becomes not mere personal (or collective) observation and conjecture; as soon as it becomes verifiable and indisputable fact; it is simply true - the label of stereotype no longer applies. Therefore, if something remains a mere stereotype, it is unlikely to be true.

    To believe that a stereotype must have a grain of truth because it is a stereotype (the old "no smoke without fire" reasoning) is as mindless and infantile as to believe that all advertising claims are true, because they are adverts. Scratch a stereotype and find agenda, propaganda, prejudice and ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #18
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Where there's smoke, there's fire.
    I don't necessairly hold with this a) because it could dry ice instead
    b) some things smoke more than really burn
    My points being a) it's a misrepensentation of facts or commonly observed pheonomena
    b) it may have been true in an isolated area, or in the past (the igition point so to speak) but either the fuel is wet or insubstantial, so it's not so true now.
    However, I'm more inclined to accept stereotypes, often subconsciously, if I have observed them to be true in my experience.
    Some people have the need to catagorise.
    I also tender up this forum and it's subject matter, as a study in the belief of stereotypes. I would have a hard time believing a large majority of you don't steorotype. You do it as interest. I do note there are exceptions, those who are anti-typology(of any kind), but MBTI isn't recognised as fact, is it? It's a rather useful working guide you throw out the window, when it stops being of use.
    Steroetyping really is a working guide that you throw out once you have more concrete input (or have a new method of operating), so it's born of ignorance (or help the ignorant). It becomes destructive when it's clung to, and misrepresented as fact, when really it stopped being useful along time ago, and some body forgot to update the working guide.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  9. #19
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Disagree. Such 'observed facts' are still subjective. Still rooted in personal, rather than global experience. Still coloured by disorders of perception.

    As soon as something becomes not mere personal (or collective) observation and conjecture; as soon as it becomes verifiable and indisputable fact; it is simply true - the label of stereotype no longer applies. Therefore, if something remains a mere stereotype, it is unlikely to be true.

    To believe that a stereotype must have a grain of truth because it is a stereotype (the old "no smoke without fire" reasoning) is as mindless and infantile as to believe that all advertising claims are true, because they are adverts. Scratch a stereotype and find agenda, propaganda, prejudice and ignorance.
    No - the perspectives I offered/you quoted are not rooted in subjective experience.

    Biologically, women have a higher concentration of fat cells than do men, on average between 6-11% more. To my other point, men are innately physically stronger than women. This is owed to increased production of testosterone.

    It's just science, blue. Adding qualitative measurement outside of data context is a perceptual invention. There are some absolutes.


    As far as your remaining points, I have no idea what you're referring to. You aren't elucidating on anything I've so far offered.

  10. #20
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Not to inject type where it may not be applicable, because it's known that it's used for far too much here, but I wonder if there's a correlation between the validity of stereotypes vs. judging orientations. For a Ti user, truth is usually axiomatic and tends to be considered as absolute. Like MLF says, the earth was always round, if something is not ALWAYS true, then it is not true. For the Te user, something is true if it can be functionally applied in a correct manner, ie, statistically. No idea. This came to me before my first cup of coffee. I might even be dreaming, there is a unicorn standing next to me.

    Anyways. I do think stereotypes can be easily misused [obviously], but they're a tool. Like Night says, how one uses the tool is extremely important and the credibility of the observation being applied to a group is paramount in the stereotype's validity. I do wonder though, is a stereotype not a fact just because it's applied to people and not to something else?



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