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  1. #51
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    True, but logic still plays a very important part when you consider the premises you base your conclusion on. Assuming that all homeless people are on the street because of a personal defect and, given money, will only further their problems may lead you to a very valid conclusion that you should not bother giving this man any money. But are those premises sound? If not, I consider the conclusion to be bunk. If your premises are sound, and you violate the use of good logic on your way to coming up with your conclusion, I consider it to be bunk.

    So, there may not be any *right* but there's definitely always a bunch of *get that nonsense out of here until you get your head straight.*
    Agreed. We can draw a logical conclusion that is complete nonsense if we start out with bad premises.

    I can logically deduce and prove to you that 1 + 1 = 0 if I start out with a faulty premise.

    Logical != right.

    Our premises are obviously the biggest thing that come into play when tackling this kind of "problem." Thus, I said that the responses to the OP will be largely based upon the ethics of the subject in question (ie, the premises), and from there, a whole slew of "logical" arguments can be made for doing this, that, or the other thing.

    I thought Ragin' was looking for some kind of universally accepted logical way of reasoning through this situation when he asked, "What is the logical thing to do here?", and I just meant to explain that there is not just one logical (Te) thing to do (while there may be many "logical" approaches to the problem (Ti)), as the premises vary from person to person.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'd not give him any money, I dont get my kicks from charity and I dont expect charity from others.
    What an interesting comment coming from an alleged "social worker."

  3. #53
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Why do we asume he's homeless to begin with because he screwed up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    You had a infinite money and walked past a seemingly pure-hearted homeless man who asked you for money and whether you give him money or not the energy you wasted in that time is exactly equal, what would be the logical thing to do?

    Btw you never see the man again in your life.

    What I'm trying to do is create a situation where logic cannot be used. Something else must be relied upon to make the decision.
    It wouldn't be necessary to add the bolded part if we weren't to suspect something unsavory just below the surface.

    Either explicitly intended by the OP, or as a quiet social stigma, I think most would agree that the homeless often get a bad rap.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Give him the money.

    Giving him cash + the fact i never see him again would only leave me with the feeling of "hope" which is a pleasant one.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  5. #55
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Will this grant me the power to never mean what I say unless I do? Sign me up.
    You already have that power! Use it wisely.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    You had infinite money and walked past a seemingly pure-hearted homeless man who asked you for money and whether you give him money or not the energy you wasted in that time is exactly equal, what would be the logical thing to do?
    I like this kind of thread. It's fun to read all the vastly different responses.

    One thing to bear in mind about homeless men is that they're generally alcoholics (pure-hearted or otherwise). Whatever money you give them, no matter how much, will be spent on alcohol. So the question is, will it make you feel warm and fuzzy inside to know that your homeless friend will be drinking in style tonight (hopefully something ethanol-based)?

    Sure, why not. Here you go buddy, have a good time. It's the most he can aspire to, why deny him that?

    If he really tugged at my heartstrings I'd help him get checked into some sort of rehab facility. But I wouldn't feel obligated to.

  7. #57
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    if i had infinite amount of money that would mean that i wouldnt lose any money if i gave him some, so why wouldnt i give him some money?
    This. Why on earth wouldn't I give him something? I can help him at no cost to myself.

  8. #58
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcia View Post
    I like this kind of thread. It's fun to read all the vastly different responses.

    One thing to bear in mind about homeless men is that they're generally alcoholics (pure-hearted or otherwise). Whatever money you give them, no matter how much, will be spent on alcohol. So the question is, will it make you feel warm and fuzzy inside to know that your homeless friend will be drinking in style tonight (hopefully something ethanol-based)?

    Sure, why not. Here you go buddy, have a good time. It's the most he can aspire to, why deny him that?

    If he really tugged at my heartstrings I'd help him get checked into some sort of rehab facility. But I wouldn't feel obligated to.
    This is the kind of bad rap (someone else mentioned) that homeless people get, it's the presumption, the stereotyping or genralization. I have known a lot of homeless people and certainly many were not alcoholics or drug users.
    Of course many homeless people are or become addicted to alcohol/drugs i'm not debating that. But...
    Often people get into bad situations through naievity or no fault of their own and end up on the streets...runaways, people with mental health issues and single jobless men are high on that list because there is little help available to them or they are too afraid to ask for it.
    This springs to mind.....




    *Not a dig at Marcia, you don't seem a bad person
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    This is the kind of bad rap (someone else mentioned) that homeless people get, it's the presumption, the stereotyping or genralization. I have known a lot of homeless people and certainly many were not alcoholics or drug users. [...] Often people get into bad situations through naievity or no fault of their own and end up on the streets...runaways, people with mental health issues and single jobless men are high on that list because there is little help available to them or they are too afraid to ask for it.
    I agree with you. However, what I was describing was simply my thought process when faced with a homeless person. When people refuse to give money to beggars, it's precisely because they assume them to be alcoholics. What I'm saying is that I would give him money even if he was an alcoholic, because at least it would give him a chance to get some better quality booze for a change.

    If it turns out he's not an alcoholic, well great. He can spend the money on something else.

    Do you see what I mean? For the purposes of making the decision, I need only look at the worst case scenario.

    Furthermore, I have nothing against alcoholics. They have a medical condition and they deserve sympathy like anyone else.

  10. #60
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcia View Post
    I agree with you. However, what I was describing was simply my thought process when faced with a homeless person. When people refuse to give money to beggars, it's precisely because they assume them to be alcoholics. What I'm saying is that I would give him money even if he was an alcoholic, because at least it would give him a chance to get some better quality booze for a change.

    If it turns out he's not an alcoholic, well great. He can spend the money on something else.

    Do you see what I mean? For the purposes of making the decision, I need only look at the worst case scenario.

    Furthermore, I have nothing against alcoholics. They have a medical condition and they deserve sympathy like anyone else.
    But if you do believe they have a medical condition and feel sympathy for them, wouldn't you hesitate about giving them a drug that will further their addiction? In your post you suggest that if they buy better booze, that's a good outcome. I'm not so sure I agree that that outcome is an expression of sympathy.

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