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Judging the judgmental

O

Oberon

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I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

What do you think?

I think what annoys us so much is not that others are judgmental, but that their judgments do not coincide with our own. Hence the inability of "tolerant" people to tolerate the "intolerant."

It's not that they don't believe in judging people. It's that they differ on who and how to judge.
 

Night

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Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.

Nicely said, Toonia. This general principle seems reminiscent of the Bodhisattva pledge.
 
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Mempy

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I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them.

True. I've reviewed a lot of my criticisms of others and come to the realization that what I most criticized in others was usually what I most criticized in myself. In other words, qualities that I reject in myself I'm much more likely to reject in others.

"We are never more discontented with others than when we are discontented with ourselves. The consciousness of wrongdoing makes us irritable, and our heart, in its cunning, quarrels with what is outside it, in order that it may deafen the clamour within." I think this quote correlates well with that you mentioned. Unconsciously, people try to make you fear and hate what they fear and hate, or they want you to hate qualities in yourself that they hate in themselves.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

What do you think?

I think you're absolutely right. I find this a lot in NF types. You also see people saying "don't be so intolerant!" It's similar. It's paradoxical.

So what do we do with these people? Help them instead of judging them, perhaps? I tend to think we can help people move from one opinion to another by assessing the quality of their opinions without actually judging THEM. It doesn't make perfect sense, I know.
 

Night

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Rather than taking their judgments personally, I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them. Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.

I'd recommend this chap, (YouTube video link) as an intellectual progression from Toonia's point.
 

Mempy

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I'd recommend this chap, (YouTube video link) as an intellectual progression from Toonia's point.

Unfortunately, I'm on a college library computer, so I can't even think about watching it. :(
 

Maverick

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Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

What do you think?

I like your way of seeing things.

It is not possible to withhold judgment. Wether affective or cognitive, we autmoatically evaluate the stimuli in our environment. We may attribute a positive or negative affect, or decide something is correct or incorrect. It is such a fundamental part of cognition. I believe our western culture deludes us into thinking that most of these behaviors could be explained by personality. Everyone is judgmental. The question is: to what degree and is it controlled and kept in check? You can rob people of their mental ressources by distracting them in a judging task by asking them to pay attention to, for example, music in their headphones. You'll see how much people are judgmental when they do not have the mental ressources to correct for their evaluation.

It is impossible to do without. It is simply a basic mechanism of cognition and precedes intelligent human behavior.
 

substitute

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Yes it is possible (sorry Maverick!!), and I do it all the time. Well, not all the time, but very often, and it comes naturally. But it seems nobody believes me, so I don't talk about it usually. I get tired of being called a liar and patronized and told I don't know my own mind and the way I work, so I gave up explaining it ages ago and hope that people will just 'get it' by getting to know me and seeing the way I live. But, since you ask...

For me it's quite simple, it comes down to something I read many years ago (age about 12) in Marcus Aurelius, about how, when you see someone behaving in such-and-such a way, there's no use in being indignant, or judgemental, or outraged. They're just behaving however they're bound to, considering their worldview, which has developed over many years, and under myriad conditions beyond my knowledge and understanding. It's like patriotism - it's only valid if you allow foreigners to be patriotic too; it's only true and justified if you acknowledge and respect other nations as being things others are justified in being patriotic about. Therefore, my worldview is only justified and valid if I acknowledge the justification and validation of everyone else's.

Valid, justified, correct and accurate are not synonyms. Saying something is one is not saying it's necessarily the other, but I tend not to say anything is anything except... that it exists, and try to understand it. I form tentative, interim 'opinions' but I don't tend to use the word 'opinion' of what I think, because it denotes a sense of permanency or fixedness that doesn't exist in me. What I think of anything or anyone is only the theory I'm currently working with, given what info I have.

I've even managed to get this through to an ENTJ, who tells people that if I seem to be giving an opinion, I'm actually just venturing a proposal, to see what they think of it, so I can take it back to the drawing board, work on it in light of the new info, then present it again, ad infinitum.

I find it strange that whenever I express any sorta policy of mine that revolves basically around non-judgementalism and compassion, I usually get my head bitten off for it, and told off, and somehow told that I'm 'being bad' or wrong, or that I'm basically foolish or whatever. So be it - I've not been able to feel as right in my conscience about being any other way than 'foolish' like this.
 
O

Oberon

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For me it's quite simple, it comes down to something I read many years ago (age about 12) in Marcus Aurelius, about how, when you see someone behaving in such-and-such a way, there's no use in being indignant, or judgemental, or outraged. They're just behaving however they're bound to, considering their worldview, which has developed over many years, and under myriad conditions beyond my knowledge and understanding.

Marcus Aurelius was a noted Stoic, was he not?
 

Kiddo

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Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

What do you think?

Well without reading all the answers in this thread cuz I'm too lazy. :D

I've actually thought about this before and came to a fairly Christian answer, which is surprising considering my "fondness" for religion. I believe the answer is in forgiveness and love. You can't change the way a person feels or thinks, so you just have to forgive them for passing judgment and continue to love them. In this way you try to be an example of the values you hold dear, and show them in spirit what you believe is the right path.

"Intolerance betrays want for faith in one's cause." - Gandhi
 

disregard

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Judgmental individuals have excessively critical points of view, and so to judge a judgmental person as being judgmental is just, because one has come to a sensible conclusion.
 
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I think it's okay to judge judgemental people because the next person born who doesn't judge will be the first.

We all judge on a regular basis, even if most of our judgements aren't as showy as we've come to expect from politicians and religious leaders. We display judgment in our everyday lives, whether we're choosing up sides for a pickup basketball game, deciding which side of the street to walk on based on who's on the other side, or hiring an employee.

We all intrinsically understand this...we only call people "judgemental" when the criteria they use differs from ours it and offends our sensibilities.
 

heart

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Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

What do you think?

It isn't the use of judgment that is the problem but lack of perspective and using true critical though in making judgments. We all make judgments and would be totally adrift in life moving from impulse to impulse if we did not. None of us is going to get sucessfully through this life without judging things.

So your issue here of it being judgmental to judge the judgmental, yes it is, but if one goes on the presumption that we all judge and judging itself is not bad, then the way to approach them is on their lack of using proper perspective and critical thinking skills when they do judge. jmo.
 

heart

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But it isn't judgmental to judge sensibly. It is quite sensible to judge someone as judgmental if they are clearly overly critical and come to hasty conclusions.

However when one starts to debating someone as being too judgmental, they can counter on you by pointing out that you are judging them for being a judging person. People who start trying to point out the wrongs of being biased or closed minded in judgment, as in not looking at all sides and considering all factors before making a judgment, go about it the wrong way in most cases. They want to say "I don't judge, nor should you." That's a logic trap, even my inferior T knows that. ;)

It is a doomed argument from the start. You edited out the portion of my earlier post where I tried to make this point. I hope I made it clearer here. I am not saying it is wrong to judge biased persons, but it is wrong to try and say what they do wrong is judging to begin with, where go wrong is in their manner of using judgment, not judging itself.


The best way to approach it is a lack of critical thought and a problem of being too biased in their judgment processes.
 
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But it isn't judgmental to judge sensibly. It is quite sensible to judge someone as judgmental if they are clearly overly critical and come to hasty conclusions.

But the problem is determining what is "sensible". It would be perfectly natural for the object of your negative judgment to decide that you are overly critical and have arrived at a hasty conclusion. I think you tread dangerous ground when you say that it's okay to judge as long as you judge correctly.
 

heart

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But the problem is determining what is "sensible". It would be perfectly natural for the object of your negative judgment to decide that you are overly critical and have arrived at a hasty conclusion. I think you tread dangerous ground when you say that it's okay to judge as long as you judge correctly.

Isn't this the heart and soul of all true debate, trying to have each side prove that they have used judgment properly to arrive at their conclusions?
 

SillySapienne

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It has been my experience with "judgmental" people, that they tend to hold what I view to be inappropriate judgments regarding individuals and their circumstances.

For example, regarding a morbidly obese individual, a nonjudgmental person recognizes that that individual is morbidly obese, perhaps they'll allow themselves to wonder a bit about what that really means. i.e. physiologically, sociologically, or psychologically, etc. And they also might wonder what that would entail, or how that would translate to the individual being observed. However, a "judgmental" person would react to the same situation quite differently, (and I've come to this conclusion from having personally witnessed this behavior on over 50 separate occassions), upon sighting a morbidly obese person, judgmental people tend to feel, or become, "offended", "grossed out" and, or "bothered" by the fact that such an individual could "do that to themselves". They also immediately ascribe a multitude of negative attributes to the person being observed, calling or thinking them to be inherently lazy, disgusting, incompetent, etc.

Yeah, I'm a nonjudgmental person except for when it comes to excessively judgmental individuals. And yes, I am guilty for thinking that they tend to be no more than ignorant assholes.
 
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Isn't this the heart and soul of all true debate, trying to have each side prove that they have used judgment properly to arrive at their conclusions?

Without doubt you are correct. Which is just another reason why it's okay to judge. Every time we watch a debate, go to vote, or sit on a jury we're not only encouraged to judge, it's our duty to judge.
 
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