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  1. #21
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

    What do you think?
    I think what annoys us so much is not that others are judgmental, but that their judgments do not coincide with our own. Hence the inability of "tolerant" people to tolerate the "intolerant."

    It's not that they don't believe in judging people. It's that they differ on who and how to judge.

  2. #22
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.
    Nicely said, Toonia. This general principle seems reminiscent of the Bodhisattva pledge.
    Last edited by Night; 11-28-2007 at 02:56 PM. Reason: concision

  3. #23
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them.
    True. I've reviewed a lot of my criticisms of others and come to the realization that what I most criticized in others was usually what I most criticized in myself. In other words, qualities that I reject in myself I'm much more likely to reject in others.

    "We are never more discontented with others than when we are discontented with ourselves. The consciousness of wrongdoing makes us irritable, and our heart, in its cunning, quarrels with what is outside it, in order that it may deafen the clamour within." I think this quote correlates well with that you mentioned. Unconsciously, people try to make you fear and hate what they fear and hate, or they want you to hate qualities in yourself that they hate in themselves.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

    I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

    What do you think?
    I think you're absolutely right. I find this a lot in NF types. You also see people saying "don't be so intolerant!" It's similar. It's paradoxical.

    So what do we do with these people? Help them instead of judging them, perhaps? I tend to think we can help people move from one opinion to another by assessing the quality of their opinions without actually judging THEM. It doesn't make perfect sense, I know.

  5. #25
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Rather than taking their judgments personally, I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them. Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.
    I'd recommend this chap, (YouTube video link) as an intellectual progression from Toonia's point.

  6. #26
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I'd recommend this chap, (YouTube video link) as an intellectual progression from Toonia's point.
    Unfortunately, I'm on a college library computer, so I can't even think about watching it.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?

    I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment?

    What do you think?
    I like your way of seeing things.

    It is not possible to withhold judgment. Wether affective or cognitive, we autmoatically evaluate the stimuli in our environment. We may attribute a positive or negative affect, or decide something is correct or incorrect. It is such a fundamental part of cognition. I believe our western culture deludes us into thinking that most of these behaviors could be explained by personality. Everyone is judgmental. The question is: to what degree and is it controlled and kept in check? You can rob people of their mental ressources by distracting them in a judging task by asking them to pay attention to, for example, music in their headphones. You'll see how much people are judgmental when they do not have the mental ressources to correct for their evaluation.

    It is impossible to do without. It is simply a basic mechanism of cognition and precedes intelligent human behavior.

  8. #28
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Yes it is possible (sorry Maverick!!), and I do it all the time. Well, not all the time, but very often, and it comes naturally. But it seems nobody believes me, so I don't talk about it usually. I get tired of being called a liar and patronized and told I don't know my own mind and the way I work, so I gave up explaining it ages ago and hope that people will just 'get it' by getting to know me and seeing the way I live. But, since you ask...

    For me it's quite simple, it comes down to something I read many years ago (age about 12) in Marcus Aurelius, about how, when you see someone behaving in such-and-such a way, there's no use in being indignant, or judgemental, or outraged. They're just behaving however they're bound to, considering their worldview, which has developed over many years, and under myriad conditions beyond my knowledge and understanding. It's like patriotism - it's only valid if you allow foreigners to be patriotic too; it's only true and justified if you acknowledge and respect other nations as being things others are justified in being patriotic about. Therefore, my worldview is only justified and valid if I acknowledge the justification and validation of everyone else's.

    Valid, justified, correct and accurate are not synonyms. Saying something is one is not saying it's necessarily the other, but I tend not to say anything is anything except... that it exists, and try to understand it. I form tentative, interim 'opinions' but I don't tend to use the word 'opinion' of what I think, because it denotes a sense of permanency or fixedness that doesn't exist in me. What I think of anything or anyone is only the theory I'm currently working with, given what info I have.

    I've even managed to get this through to an ENTJ, who tells people that if I seem to be giving an opinion, I'm actually just venturing a proposal, to see what they think of it, so I can take it back to the drawing board, work on it in light of the new info, then present it again, ad infinitum.

    I find it strange that whenever I express any sorta policy of mine that revolves basically around non-judgementalism and compassion, I usually get my head bitten off for it, and told off, and somehow told that I'm 'being bad' or wrong, or that I'm basically foolish or whatever. So be it - I've not been able to feel as right in my conscience about being any other way than 'foolish' like this.
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  9. #29
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    For me it's quite simple, it comes down to something I read many years ago (age about 12) in Marcus Aurelius, about how, when you see someone behaving in such-and-such a way, there's no use in being indignant, or judgemental, or outraged. They're just behaving however they're bound to, considering their worldview, which has developed over many years, and under myriad conditions beyond my knowledge and understanding.
    Marcus Aurelius was a noted Stoic, was he not?

  10. #30
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    They're just behaving however they're bound to, considering their worldview, which has developed over many years, and under myriad conditions beyond my knowledge and understanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    What I think of anything or anyone is only the theory I'm currently working with, given what info I have.
    Yep, agreed.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

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