User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 54

  1. #11
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    2,590

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Damn ambiguous language!

    One construction of the phrase 'withholding judgement' would be that you simply never voice your opinion of someone. This definition seems not to eliminate judgement, but only to create an aura of being without judgement.

    The second, would say that someone withholds the ability to judge. I don't think it's impossible for that to happen, but I don't think it ever has or ever will.
    yes, don't you love ambiguity.

    By the first, I merely meant that you accept others on their own terms, or reject them on ours, simply. It goes beyond keeping silent in that sense, and is more than an aura, to me at least.

    * If by the second you mean the inability to make a decision, then it's not really a good thing. For e.g. in an abusive relationship. Retaliation could be the judgement. Or walking away could be the better judgement, isn't it?

    Choosing to live with the abuse - is that judgement or a lack thereof? There comes a point when we do have to choose, isn't it. And if it is not judgement that makes that choice, I'm not certain what?

  2. #12
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    2,590

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Just playing my part. Toonia must have known this would lead to infinite recursion (recursion...recursion...recursion).
    but still, she does it anyway.

    Isn't "must have known" a judgement too?

  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    I guess I tend to regard judgementalness (which firefox spellcheck assures me is not a word) as a symptom rather than an essential aspect of a person's personality. Then, having identified it, said it aside when talking to them. And I look for underlying causes for the judgementalness. I can be pretty judgemental, but usually more about behaviours rather than people. Except when the people in question are abstracts identified as exhibiting a particular behaviour which I condemn, for discussion purposes. Then I will probably judge them, but I'm really judging the behaviour. Underneath it, though, I'm still looking for the causes.
    What about using "prejudging"? I'm afraid you can't add "ness" to "al." (Plus it's kind of cumbersome.)

    Anyway, toonia... you could respond to a judgmental person in a nonjudgmental fashion by example. You simply treat them in a tolerant way despite their failure to reciprocate.

    But I don't think it's always best to be nonjudgmental. There are situations when you shouldn't ignore a particularly judgmental person, even if you have to judge them to deal with the situation. It's hard to say where that point is, though.

  4. #14
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,226

    Default

    The same principle that's applied to opinions can be applied to judgments as well: they are not all created equal. You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion. The same is true of judgments. An opinion or judgment is only good if it is well researched, well reasoned, and well argued.

    To pass judgment on someone has become known to mean to lambaste a person with criticism, or to oversimplify the person so that they may be demonized and condemned more easily. A judgment can be tentative, well reasoned, and well researched.

    Some opinions don't have any substance, as we all know. Some opinions are born of anger and hurt and aren't well reasoned or well researched. These are usually what people are referring to when they say, "Don't judge someone." Is it wrong to dislike the way a person behaves? It is wrong to come to a well reasoned judgment of that person or their behavior? Not at all! Not even slightly. What is fallacy is to do so preemptively, no matter what your reasons for preemptively judging that person are. They can be emotional reasons, pride reasons, lack of evidence or information, whatever. It amounts to the same fallacy and inaccuracy.

    So what if you come to an incorrect conclusion, though? Aren't we all preemptive and scathing sometimes? I think if you can forgive yourself for your flaws, you can also forgive others. If you can move past what you have done and gently pick yourself back up, you can do so for others, too. In a sense, it becomes a matter of self-compassion and self-kindness. If you judge yourself harshly, you'll probably judge others harshly as well. When you think about it, there's no good reason to be unkind to yourself or to others, but they seem to go hand in hand. We've all done it and we'll all do it again. I've been trying to work on kindness toward myself. I've been working on it for the past year and a half, LOL.

    "Passing judgment" on someone has become slang for writing them off based on insufficient evidence and insufficient thought (and insufficient empathy). The truth is, not all judgments are the same. They're not all condemnatory, scathing, mean, or immature. Nope! Some are quite valid, understanding and informed.

    When someone does judge me, I realize that either the critique is deserved and I intend to correct it, or the person delivering it is incorrectly biased or misinformed and therefore the criticism is inaccurate and inapplicable. No matter how valid or informed the criticism is, I try not to kick myself for it. I'm awesome and I know it, and hey, I can improve. I'm kind to myself, to the best of my ability.

  5. #15
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    It's not whether a person is judgemental or not which tends to introduce the negatives.

    Voicing judgements has nothing to do with whether you make judgements or not.

    The only way to avoid the negatives in judgements is to not make them final, to leave room for review, to allow for change. Then your judgements are in context and hold only as long as the situation which produces them holds.

    You cannot avoid making judgements even if that judgement is to withhold judgement until a point where judgement is unavoidable that is still to some extent a judgement based on the situation. It is an answer and therefore a judgement. You can't even interact with an apple without making judgements, assessments and so forth.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #16
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    248

    Default

    I get the feel that the very idea of judging is being judged as a negative action. I feel differently about it. My sense is that judging things, evaluating them, is a natural action everyone undertakes almost constantly, and I suspect it would be difficult to function in this world without judgement.

    I think when judgements tend to be received with negative feeling is when they become moralistic judgements vs. value judgements.

    From the book Non-Violent Communication: A Language of Life:

    One kind of life-alienating communication is the use of moralistic judgments that imply wrongness or badness on the part of people who don't act in harmony with our values. Such judgements are reflected in language such as, "The problem with you is that you're too selfish." "She's lazy." "They're prejudiced." "It's inappropriate." Blame, insults, put-downs, labels, criticism, comparisons, and diagnoses are all forms of judgement.
    It is important here not to confuse value judgments and moralistic judgements. All of us make value judgements as to the qualities we value in life; for example, we might value honesty, freedom, or peace. Value judgments reflect our beliefs of how life can best be served. We make moralistic judgments of people and behaviors that fail to support our value judgments, e.g. "Violence is bad. People who kill others are evil." Had we been raised speaking a language that facilitated the expression of compassion, we would have learned to articulate our needs and values directly, rather than to insinuate wrongness when they have not been met. For example, instead of "Violence is bad," we might say instead, "I am fearful of the use of violence to resolve conflicts; I value the resolution of human conflicts through other means."
    When discomfort with differing values is vented as negative moralistic judgement of another person, I generally feel withdrawn from the felt violence of the language and some range of frustrated, irritated, hurt or angry. I value instead acknowledging the differing values and expressing my experience of their values and sharing with them what I value.

    I'm not adept at framing things in value judgements vs. moralistic judgements at all, but I do value it and I work toward making that my more normal mode of experiencing and communicating.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Here is a twisted little observation that has come to mind recently. Most people weary of those who are judgmental, but how do you respond to a judgmental person without passing judgment? And if someone misjudges someone as being that way, then that person becomes the guilty party so to speak?
    That is definitely the problem when it comes to discussing judgmental behavior.

    I just wonder if a truly non-judgmental attitude allows for the human frailty in others of being judgmental. Is it possible withhold judgment? What do you think?
    This is a hard discussion to simplify. I think that generally it comes down to a willingness to confront someone for their own benefit, because you "love" them, and not because you are mad at them for their criticalness. In other words, you are using your critical sense to reaffirm the relationship somehow or engage the other person, rather than dismiss or tear them down.

    i.e., love.

    I feel an attitude shift internally, like I have "softened" up, when I try to practice this. I am usually angry and hard and cold and sharp-edged inside about the other person's judgmentalism; the love thing feels softer, more expansive, embracing, and I empathize with the person. My critical sense never turns off, I am still fully aware of their mistakes and limitations... but I am also aware of my own, and my goal is less to point out their flaws/sins and more to embrace them where they are at in the act of encouraging them to change.

    Intellectual arguments unfortunately tend to contribute to the former because they are already detached from the individual.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,586

    Default

    I have noticed sometimes people get wound really tight about spotting judgmental people. They will assume the worst possible interpretations of what others say to prove their point. The irony of it struck me. For a while I shared the assumption that judgmental attitudes should be rejected. Once I saw this circular situation of judging the judgmental, it occurred to me to look for a softer approach. There is a reason why people jump to conclusions about others. Those reasons typically involve reflexes to avoid pain. Rather than taking their judgments personally, I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them. Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  9. #19
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I have noticed sometimes people get wound really tight about spotting judgmental people. They will assume the worst possible interpretations of what others say to prove their point. The irony of it struck me. For a while I shared the assumption that judgmental attitudes should be rejected. Once I saw this circular situation of judging the judgmental, it occurred to me to look for a softer approach. There is a reason why people jump to conclusions about others. Those reasons typically involve reflexes to avoid pain. Rather than taking their judgments personally, I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them. Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.
    I started out thinking you were saying we should ignore judgemental people...that'd be an ironic and judgemental opinion.

    Personally I take those with black and white opinions as exactly that, black and white. If I wish to aim for white or black I will do and if not then now I have a buoy marking out roughly where that territory is.

    Always in context
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #20
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    248

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    There is a reason why people jump to conclusions about others. Those reasons typically involve reflexes to avoid pain. Rather than taking their judgments personally, I try to look at what they are feeling and understand that the rejection and feeling they impose on me is likely akin to what has been imposed on them. Without realizing it, the judgmental person is telling you, through a shared experience, something they have felt in their life. It isn't "good" or "bad", but just another way in which human beings are frail.
    Exactly.
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

Similar Threads

  1. The Percieving and Judging aspect is the only thing that can be changed naturally?
    By Illmatic in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 08-02-2011, 05:47 AM
  2. The Search for Better, More Elemental Definitions of the Functions, Esp. Judging
    By Eric B in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-10-2011, 02:44 PM
  3. American Idol - Judge The Judges
    By highlander in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-23-2010, 05:46 AM
  4. I'll be the judge of that.
    By professor goodstain in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-31-2009, 12:09 PM
  5. Heuristics and Biases:The Psychology of Intuitive Judgment
    By ygolo in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-13-2008, 02:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO