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  1. #51
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Well i can not foresee any difficulty at all, can you?

    Phonetically many words do not make sense anyway, the English language is pretty stupid when it comes to this. There are roughly 220 sight words that are imperitive to learn in order to begin reading fluently on a basic level. These need to be learnt mainly by sight. Words like you, what, which, know etc etc.
    The program was founded in 1982 and i have never heard of anyone, dyslexic or non-dyslexic experience anything detremental to their learning.

    How long term do you mean?
    I do foresee difficulty with non-visual learners learning non-sight words. The English language is a crazy mishmash because it is, in essence, a combination of languages, but those languages are phonetic in their written forms.

    In early elementary school, the 220 sight words will get you a long way. In high school and college, they might not be enough and if a person does not have basic phonic decoding skills, they could well have problems.

    I would not want my children taught only or even primarily a sight-based reading system. I want my children to learn the phonetic mechanics of reading, even if it's complicated and at times confusing. I'd be five kinds of pissed if this area of their education was neglected.

    This study was done in 2001 with only 86 students. Have there been broader studies or long-term follow up? I would hope that such would be the case before 90% of students' educations were tinkered with for the benefit children who could simply have their own reading group.

    My sons are autistic and sometimes they need some special accommodations, but I can't imagine expecting the rest of the student body to have to take time out of their day to do social stories and talk about 'expected' behaviors, etc.

    Those kids know that "My head is a pig!" is not an appropriate salutation. My son, OTOH, needed a little help figuring that out. I wouldn't want him taken out of advanced math because a couple of the kids in his class were struggling with math, so it's only fair.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  2. #52
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I had a friend who had a kid in school when the school decided for a few years not to teach phonetics and go with sight. It was a nightmare, he had to get the child tutoring and switched to a private school. Once they switched to phonetics his son learned quickly with no problem.

    I would be very upset if my kids were learning a non phonetics based way to deal with language. Actually even sight words get added to the phonetics database in your head and makes it easier to sound out similar weird words, at least in my experience.

    OT: My third daughter is very much a sight reader, I hadn't seen a kid like that before (or maybe just hadn't taught one), she guesses words and learns very quickly. I still am glad she learned phonetics but it is very interesting watching her learn to read.

  3. #53
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    Default Phonics is not for everyone

    I have an auditory processing disorder that was diagnosed when I was an adult.
    It made phonics an impossible task for me. Yet, I never had any difficulty with reading.
    When I was four years old, my mother discovered by accident that I already knew how to read. Somehow, I had managed to teach myself, with my parents' help, of course. When my mom read to me, she had her finger beneath the word that she was reading. Apparently, I learned to recognize the words without any active instruction.
    As a first grader two years later, I was placed in the fast reading group because I already knew how to read. When the teacher realized that I could not do the phonics drills, she kept moving me from one reading group to the next until I managed to land in the slow reading group. Oh, was I bored! But I still could not do the phonics drills. In fact, I can remember wondering what the point of making all of those odd sounds was since my brain did not translate those sounds into letters or words.
    I have always read by recognizing entire words as if they were pictures.
    But I can recognize prefixes and suffixes and root words because those can be broken apart visually.
    Since being diagnosed with auditory processing disorder, I have had a number of years of therapy from speech-language pathologists. I will never be much good at sounding out unfamiliar words, however. Normally, I just ask someone to read the new word to me a few times and then I memorize it.
    As for spelling, because my reading skills are so visual, I can immediately tell if a word is misspelled because it looks strange. If a word is badly misspelled, even if it is spelled phonetically, I will not recognize it at all.
    I am not dyslexic, however.
    So, for sure, phonics is not for everyone. You may even know a child who learns in the way that I did. Please make sure to teach to that child's strengths, rather than weaknesses, if you are a teacher.
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  4. #54
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Guys

    labeling is just categorising, to imply that dyslexia is not a dissability is just incorrect... it hampers your life in a number of ways.

    Would it hamper your life if you were taught in a way at reception level that meant you could read and write at the same level as everybody else?

    Despite having dule teriary qualifications includign a first class degree, at no point in time will I ever be able to confidently read out loud, no point will I ever be able to pick up a pen publically and not flinch about my spelling.

    For many dyslexics the emotional implications of that flinch is they simply stop trying and end up in menial jobs.

    Yes like my brother did for many years although he has a semi photographic memory (in images). Because he acted out after being fed up of labelled the "dumb" kid

    For many they are squashed so badly by class mates into beleiving they are stupid that they simply give up.

    Again yes, but if there were no difficulties in the first place because they were taught in a way which enabled them to progress at a similar rate to their other class mates...
    I have to add here that in the case of many dyslexics i know including my son it was the adults that were more discriminatory

    For many they simply turn away from written langauge which ultimately leaves to increadibly poor literacy.

    There are many condtions within the umbarella of dyslexia, the social stigma and the weird stuff... I seem to have missed out on the following:
    Decent swimming classes - they happened when I was doign extra English - so I'm not a strong swimmer
    Some elements of maths - because I was at english classes
    Violin - no problem there
    and a variety of other subjects I missed because I was in English

    And all this because you were taken out of class because the education system could not educate you efficiently?

    don't get me wrong, I was a lucky one, I was given a very advanced form of specal ed - I was regressed 1/2 day a week in primary 7.

    Were you given extra phonics? what kind of program did you do?

    But don't simply think by changing the word disabled to challenged or equally fluffy language that you reduce the primary or secondary handicap this conditions results in.

    The thing is you have had all this bad personal experience because you were held in a system that did not meet your educational needs, what if it had?

    Lack of confidence for the rest of your life.

    Again because of the way you were treated, it's a disgrace

    If you really want to know how crap this poitn of view is... think of it like this....

    I want to be blind so I cna hear my music better, I know a blind person and they really hear sounds better...

    No, because i am saying that if you have dyslexia you can learn to read and write just like anyone else plus you have added extras.
    It would be more like saying i want to have evolved hearing plus i want to be able to see, i don't think anyone is understanding what i am saying



    What I read in the OP is a mum that loves her son, coupled with some outragious bull, ..... love your son and understand what he is going to have to go through beyond just extra English is damaging him.
    Please tell me what is outrageous? exactly what?
    I'm sorry you have been through so much with the education system, i am trying to promote helping people with dyslexia so that they do not have to go through what you have, is that so bad?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #55
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Recently, with things like ADHD and dyslexia, there has been a movement to not treat these things as disorders, but just as a part of someone's personality, and often the source of some of their gifts. I'd agree with this.

    If someone needs bucket loads of adderall just to sit still in a seat for over 30 minutes, maybe their future isn't meant to be sitting at a desk their whole life.

    Yale has a whole program called Yale Center For Dyslexia & Creativity There's good research to support the idea.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    I had a friend who had a kid in school when the school decided for a few years not to teach phonetics and go with sight. It was a nightmare, he had to get the child tutoring and switched to a private school. Once they switched to phonetics his son learned quickly with no problem.

    Well, it's never a good idea to chop and change like that, how odd. So what was the program they were using?

    I would be very upset if my kids were learning a non phonetics based way to deal with language. Actually even sight words get added to the phonetics database in your head and makes it easier to sound out similar weird words, at least in my experience.

    Would you be upset if they not only excelled but they also found it easier?
    Would that be a bad idea?


    OT: My third daughter is very much a sight reader, I hadn't seen a kid like that before (or maybe just hadn't taught one), she guesses words and learns very quickly. I still am glad she learned phonetics but it is very interesting watching her learn to read.
    She may think pictorily too, just an idea. If she learnt phonics easily it's unlikey she would be dyslexic but she may also have some great skills in 3d imaging
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Tourist View Post
    I have an auditory processing disorder that was diagnosed when I was an adult.
    It made phonics an impossible task for me. Yet, I never had any difficulty with reading.
    When I was four years old, my mother discovered by accident that I already knew how to read. Somehow, I had managed to teach myself, with my parents' help, of course. When my mom read to me, she had her finger beneath the word that she was reading. Apparently, I learned to recognize the words without any active instruction.
    As a first grader two years later, I was placed in the fast reading group because I already knew how to read. When the teacher realized that I could not do the phonics drills, she kept moving me from one reading group to the next until I managed to land in the slow reading group. Oh, was I bored! But I still could not do the phonics drills. In fact, I can remember wondering what the point of making all of those odd sounds was since my brain did not translate those sounds into letters or words.
    I have always read by recognizing entire words as if they were pictures.
    But I can recognize prefixes and suffixes and root words because those can be broken apart visually.
    Since being diagnosed with auditory processing disorder, I have had a number of years of therapy from speech-language pathologists. I will never be much good at sounding out unfamiliar words, however. Normally, I just ask someone to read the new word to me a few times and then I memorize it.
    As for spelling, because my reading skills are so visual, I can immediately tell if a word is misspelled because it looks strange. If a word is badly misspelled, even if it is spelled phonetically, I will not recognize it at all.
    I am not dyslexic, however.
    So, for sure, phonics is not for everyone. You may even know a child who learns in the way that I did. Please make sure to teach to that child's strengths, rather than weaknesses, if you are a teacher.
    Thank you for sharing that. I do not profess to know much about auditory processing but i do know that it affects my son as part of his dyslexia. To what degree i am unclear and also unclear in your case. I'm willing to bet though that you have some great skills, do you think in pictures? are you arty?
    P.s I'm not suggesting you are dyslexic by the way. It's just i have read somewhere that people with auditory processing difficulties do also have some similar abilities to dyslexics in the way they think.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #58
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Recently, with things like ADHD and dyslexia, there has been a movement to not treat these things as disorders, but just as a part of someone's personality, and often the source of some of their gifts. I'd agree with this.

    If someone needs bucket loads of adderall just to sit still in a seat for over 30 minutes, maybe there future isn't meant to be sitting at a desk their whole life.

    Yale has a whole program called Yale Center For Dyslexia & Creativity There's good research to support the idea.
    Why thank you for that!
    and i am very happy you contributed a good link, i have just been browsing the site and it seems very positive, just how i like it!
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Yeah I believe I got a bit of dyslexia. I am glad to see this explains all my other superpowers. (this is not the first time I have heard of such correlations)
    Brilliant and i am very glad to hear from someone who realises they are actually super powered!
    someone must have been giving you the right messages somewhere along the line.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    IDK, perhaps his analogy wasn't fully complete, but the idea behind it is still true--reading is very important, and those who can't read are less able than those who can. Some dyslexics have fantastic spatial abilities that go alongside with their dyslexia but that doesn't negate the trump card of being able to read in our society. Reading is so important to our culture because it adds a multilayered worldview that cannot be replicated by extemporaneous talking.

    Yes, learning to read and write is very important, So why would anyone dyslexic not want to use a style of learning that enabled them to read and write as easily as anyone else?
    And why would anyone non dyslexic not want to be taught in a learning style that would benefit them more than the current style?
    It just dosn't make sense to me, i do not understand why so many people seem so against this, i really feel a whole lot of negativity in here.
    I am surprised actually, i though i would see a lot more open mindedness.

    People who can't read fluently are labouring away at the exercise of reading rather than performing an automatic activity that lets them think about the message within the words themselves. It's a disability because their brain is working to decode rather than analyze the thoughts behind the words.

    But is it a disibility if they can easily learn to read and write if taught in a way that would also benefit many other children?

    If you can get him to read fluently in another way, awesome, but I'm with Elaur that it might be harmful to tell him he's "gifted" without adding the "disabled" in other areas part.
    Why would it be wrong to tell a gifted person they are gifted? He's cathcing up so fast with this program that i believe within a year he may surpass his peers, what would make anyone think thats a disibility?

    Just stress the fact that we all have weaknesses and strengths and we all need to address our weaknesses... I don't see what the big deal is with telling your son he has a weakness. It seems like a recipe for a harsh encounter with reality when he's older and he needs to have reading nailed down firmly in order to succeed (which would require working harder for it than other students).
    Equally we need to address our strengths.
    My son and I are currently, on a daily basis addressing what you refer to as "weaknesses". I actually do not interpret it as a weakness. With the style of learning we are using he is whizzing ahead with relatively no effort. The weakness is in the main eduactional system of learning.
    Where is the problem?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

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