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  1. #91
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GemPOPGem View Post
    Again please read posts, and sexuality has absoluetly nothing to do with learning styles, or indeed ridiculous nonsense reagrding faeces.
    He's giving an example to point out how "gift" or "disability" is relative to what is valued or not valued by the surrounding culture.

    It's obvious dyslexia has nothing to do with feces; he said this to show that something considered negative in one society (like flinging poo at people) might be positive in another.

    Since dyslexia tends to lead to mostly negative results in this society, it's generally considered a disability. If most people were dyslexic, the few who were not would probably be considered disabled--but since most people are not dyslexic and dyslexia produces significant and unusual difficulties for those who are, it fits the generally accepted definition of "disability."

    Quote Originally Posted by dictionary.com
    dis?a?bil?i?ty
    ??/?d?s??b?l?ti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-uh-bil-i-tee] Show IPA
    –noun, plural -ties for 2.
    1. lack of adequate power, strength, or physical or mental ability; incapacity.
    2. a physical or mental handicap, esp. one that prevents a person from living a full, normal life or from holding a gainful job.
    3. anything that disables or puts one at a disadvantage: His mere six-foot height will be a disability in professional basketball.
    If dyslexia puts him at a disadvantage or prevents/makes difficult his ability to lead a full, normal life, it is a disability. End of story.

    Jonnyboy's point was that it's only a disability because your son lives in a society where the skills it impairs are considered vital and necessary on a daily basis. If the skills which dyslexia impairs were not valued highly by this society, it would not be a disability. See?

    I read the link you provided. So yes, there are some benefits to having dyslexia, but that doesn't invalidate the obvious negative effects. So dyslexia is both a gift and a disability in that it allows one to do certain things better than others, but also impairs ability in common and very important tasks such as reading and writing.

    In this way it's similar to, say, Savant syndrome. It improves certain aspects of cognition significantly, which makes it a gift, but it also impairs others, often to the point of causing a lot of distress and requiring special conditions in order for the person to lead a full, normal life--which makes it also a disability.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #92
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Ok, here we go....

    Originally Posted by Night View Post
    As a disorder unto itself, Dyslexia is appreciated as having a clinical basis for diagnosis. While I'm uncertain as to your offered pairing of superior intellect with those who suffer from Dyslexia, I can assure you that it retains a neurological contrast between those who suffer from it and those who do not.

    The neurological contrast link is a hypothesis, it took an age to read and actually was full of lines like this

    "It must be emphasized here that considerable caution is required when attempting to draw any explanatory model of dyslexia from the results reported below..."
    and this
    "Obviously, however, one important issue for future research will be to try and understand why a supposedly common basic temporal deficit yields such different manifestations and why these manifestations are so variable in their association with the reading impairment."
    Also notable was the fact that the hypothesis consitantly referred to dyslexia as a disorder not a disibility.





    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    If a disability it isn't, why then does Dyslexia have a clinically-supported neurological term defining its behavior?

    Actually many things have neurological terms defining their behaivour that are not disibilities, for example "hypersexuality" and "hyposexuality". I do not mean either of these terms are realted to Dyslexia but they are, as examples, clinically-supported neurological terms defining their behaivour which are not considered disabilities.



    Why then does it retain legal support protecting those who suffer from it from indemnity?

    Pretty much for the same reasons that other marginalised persons would need it.





    Perhaps the issue is one of semantic context. I've enclosed the Merriam-Webster definition for 'disability'.
    dis?a?bil?i?ty??/?d?s??b?l?ti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dis-uh-bil-i-tee] Show IPA
    –noun, plural -ties for 2. 1. lack of adequate power, strength, or physical or mental ability; incapacity.
    2. a physical or mental handicap, esp. one that prevents a person from living a full, normal life or from holding a gainful job.
    3. anything that disables or puts one at a disadvantage: His mere six-foot height will be a disability in professional basketball.
    4. the state or condition of being disabled.
    5. legal incapacity; legal disqualification.

    Ok so thats the definition of disibility, this is the defination of disorder

    disorder
    • noun 1 a lack of order; confusion. 2 the disruption of peaceful and law-abiding behaviour. 3 Medicine a disruption of normal physical or mental functions.
    • verb bring disorder to

    I would agree with the first purely on the basis of the way dyslexic children are being taught in the current schooling system. It confuses them hence the need for a better alternative.







    Dyslexia is, from legal and scientific perspectives, a disability.

    From a scientific perspective i have already argued above using your own link of the hypothesis.
    From a legal point it does depend. Someone with mild dyslexia may not be considered to have a learning disibility where as someone who has severe dyslexia may. Some london boroughs do not even recognise dyslexia. They prefer instead to use the term specific learning difficulty or difference.
    Altogether though you'd be hard pressed to call everyone with dyslexia "disabled"
    The oxford dictionary also does not refer to it as a disibility
    dyslexia
    /disleksi /
    • noun a disorder involving difficulty in learning to read or interpret words, letters, and other symbols.
    — DERIVATIVES dyslexic adjective & noun.
    — ORIGIN from Greek lexis ‘speech’ (apparently by confusion of Greek legein ‘to speak’ and Latin legere ‘to read’).

    Aagain i would refer to the defination of disorder and be happy with accepting the first as afore mentioned.


    Whether or not we individually choose to accept this fact is up to us.
    I would also like to add a couple of little bits of info that i like.....

    Dyslexia Association of Ireland Conference 20 October 2007
    Opening Address by Turlough O’Sullivan, IBEC Director General


    I will conclude by reiterating that dyslexia is not a condition that should
    nowadays spell disaster for anyone. I emphasise that people who are
    ‘blessed with dyslexia’ as Richard Branson describes himself, are often
    highly creative and talented and perhaps even better suited to the world of
    business than others who don’t have the condition. In an economy where we
    value knowledge and innovation, dyslexics can thrive and become leaders,
    given the right opportunities. I encourage employers to accommodate and
    support this strand of talent within the workforce, because without that
    accommodation it is hard for many to succeed. I have no doubt that, even
    within this room, we have future leaders and that in the future we will
    wonder why dyslexia was ever considered unusual. I hope that we can have
    a positive debate today and make some real progress in how to reach that
    worthy goal.


    Also this....

    Positive Leaders: Majority of Millionaires Struggled in School
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  3. #93
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    What if you overhaul the system to teach kids to read by sight and only discover years down the road that it created massive stumbling blocks for the kids who didn't have dyslexia? It seems unwise to change the way reading is taught when the system works for the vast majority of students.
    Something Witty

  4. #94
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    What if you overhaul the system to teach kids to read by sight and only discover years down the road that it created massive stumbling blocks for the kids who didn't have dyslexia? It seems unwise to change the way reading is taught when the system works for the vast majority of students.
    Please read post 76 and look at the bbc link.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  5. #95
    loopy Ulaes's Avatar
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    i can only speak for myself here but it seems being dyslexic is related to the fact that i'm so good with mental visualisation and mental rotatation, among other things. i imagine other dyslexics have similar abilities because a certain function that should be taking place in the left hemisphere takes place in the right (or something like that) meaning they can do things others cannot (= advantage). i see dyslexia as part of the great weakness that comes with my great strenght (visualisation and creativity).
    it's a disability because it's uncommon. if the majority had dyslexic minds, there'd be a lot less essays and a lot more mind maps and diagrams.
    if it's a gift i want to return it, it's like someone tied my shoelaces together then made me compete in a running race.

    so, yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Well, the most obvious answer is that is both a gift AND a disability.
    that one.

  6. #96
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Just because there are two people on the planet misguided enough to say that Dyslexia is a good thing doesn't mean that the average dyslexic agrees with them.

    It sulks...

    I know plenty of dyslexis that are not very bright, not very creative...

    If you value creativity and intellect as gifts then prased that, but stop with the causal effects that Dyslexia is the driver of it...

    Dyslexia means years of labouring with something that is an oober difficulty and frustrating them to the point of giving up on their natrual calling.

  7. #97
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Just because there are two people on the planet misguided enough to say that Dyslexia is a good thing doesn't mean that the average dyslexic agrees with them.

    It sulks...

    I know plenty of dyslexis that are not very bright, not very creative...

    If you value creativity and intellect as gifts then prased that, but stop with the causal effects that Dyslexia is the driver of it...

    Dyslexia means years of labouring with something that is an oober difficulty and frustrating them to the point of giving up on their natrual calling.
    It seems you really struggle and i am sorry if i have offended you, it's not what i want to do.
    Theres not only two people who are happy who are dyslexic or happy being dyslexic. 40% of the top 300 british entrepreneur millionaires are diagnosed dyslexics.
    Thats a huge percentage, the research was carried out by the bbc for a program they made -not about dyslexia but about wealth.
    Also there is this website
    Happy Dyslexic | Happy Dyslexic
    The point is that there are people who are happy they are dyslexic, Richard branson is famously quoted as saying " I am blessed with dyslexia"
    There are many people who are happy being dyslexic, i can quote many more people if you like.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  8. #98
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    and what about the '000,000 who get no where near their potentiall.

    The reasons they entrepreneur are so scuessful si ebcause they feel so bloody flawed that they have to excell and have a burning desire to prove their worth in the world. You'll find those people who are at the very top of oragnisations have a "need to get there" not because they are nessesarily inspirational

    I appreciate you can cherry pick the sound bites as much as you like...but the reality for the vast majority is no hope jobs, low self worht and shyte attainment...

    yes the brighter ones fall back on other skills but please don't be quite so patronising to think it's pink fluffy clouds, it's seriously not... and I've been given SO much bleeding education, so much more than other kids because of my intellegence...

    Clearly you are going to insist on deluding yoruself and it seriously is a delusion, there are plenty of people on this thread saying the same thing and I am and you seem unable to hear them.

    Maybe balancing yoru reporitng with view of the other vast majorty who fail to meet their intellelectual/aptiutates because of it. Please dont; kid yourself that the high acheiver (of which I am on), are the norm, I can say the vast majory I was schooled with have relatively low life acheivements. It's about reality of the population not the 10% who are doing well.

    I ahve been stopped on many occations and told what and inspiration I am and asked for words of encouragment for peoples kids, nephews, neices and the likes, to which you always give possitive messages... that is certainly not the same as the disability beign a gift - so don't gild the lilly

  9. #99
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    and what about the '000,000 who get no where near their potentiall.

    The reasons they entrepreneur are so scuessful si ebcause they feel so bloody flawed that they have to excell and have a burning desire to prove their worth in the world. You'll find those people who are at the very top of oragnisations have a "need to get there" not because they are nessesarily inspirational

    I appreciate you can cherry pick the sound bites as much as you like...but the reality for the vast majority is no hope jobs, low self worht and shyte attainment...

    yes the brighter ones fall back on other skills but please don't be quite so patronising to think it's pink fluffy clouds, it's seriously not... and I've been given SO much bleeding education, so much more than other kids because of my intellegence...

    Clearly you are going to insist on deluding yoruself and it seriously is a delusion, there are plenty of people on this thread saying the same thing and I am and you seem unable to hear them.

    Maybe balancing yoru reporitng with view of the other vast majorty who fail to meet their intellelectual/aptiutates because of it. Please dont; kid yourself that the high acheiver (of which I am on), are the norm, I can say the vast majory I was schooled with have relatively low life acheivements. It's about reality of the population not the 10% who are doing well.

    I ahve been stopped on many occations and told what and inspiration I am and asked for words of encouragment for peoples kids, nephews, neices and the likes, to which you always give possitive messages... that is certainly not the same as the disability beign a gift - so don't gild the lilly
    Dyslexic individuals generally score at average or above average on iq tests. What makes you think they dont?
    The people who do not reach their full potential (and they do have the potential) struggle within a school environment that has a different teaching style to thir needs, they are discriminated against.
    In my personal experience i have not met a single dyslexic child of below average intelligence.

    Below is a quote from this link for channel 4

    (Who is dyslexic?)

    "Dyslexia does not affect intelligence and dyslexic people can be successful in any area of life, often excelling in the visual arts, music and the theatre"

    My son went through 12 programs of "jolly phonics" at his previous school befor i intervined because it was not working for him. However we have found a program that does work.

    Can i ask you which programs you used/worked with?

    I am not deluding myself, i am making a clear argument with as much info and personal experience as i can give and for what i truely believe in. It's not fluffy clouds i have seen many people being treated appallingly (mainly by adults not children) including my own son and brother. I want a better system that works for the benefit of everyone and actually works with dyslexic children so that they can learn to read/write etc with relative ease.
    To me it seems you are saying that although you are an intelligent dyslexic individual who recieved a lot of help along the way, most are not intelligent.

    Can i please ask you what words of encouragement you give to people when they ask?

    I am not trying to be patronising! I was genuinely appologising if i had caused you offence pure and simple because it's not what i am trying to do.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  10. #100
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I take offense because you are quoting absolute rubbish. Its the toch people spout when they are "reporting" something someone else has going on... rather than experiencing it.

    Sound bites form high achievers don't represent the population or respec the rough journey that kids go through.

    I have had a lot of dylsexic kids, with varing degrees of dyslexia....many have creative talents, a few are supper bright, most are reasonably normal intellectually.

    There were around 40 diangosed dyslexic kids in my high school, all recevied aditional education support (which was suprsingingly good given the time), out of them I'd say 2 (had very high IQs), most of those other kids were destined to low end jobs and child rearing because they simply wanted out the education system as fast as possible (because tey struggled). Many in this wider group were from social poorer areas.... few would make it out being till work or the likes.

    For the meidum/higher end of the intellegent ones, not only did they have to spend painful hour after hour working on stuff that was preventing them being exposed to wider experience, but they would repeat it etc.

    What words did I encourage kids with... read, even thought it's hard, stick with it, and read what you are interested in. and then park your education in favour of life... Its a barrier to you getting to your goals, but don;t let it stop you.

    I'm the youngest of 11 kids, there are 3 of us who are properly dyslexic (probably 4), although in recent trendiness you 2 more are kidding themselves on they are dylsexic.

    I am an aunt to 24 children, dyslexia runs in the next generation of the family, I'd say there was a decidedly mix bag of results form the dyslexic camp. Some of the brighter oens are certainly not going to meet their potential, and a few have already excelled.

    One just got a first from Glasgow Art....

    I've watched kids I was educated with go throug the pain of learning, put up wiht the pain of being catogised as stupid by their class mates, I've seen the wee ones in my own life struggle through school and have to work 3 or 4 times hard just to break even...

    DECIDELY NOT A GIFT.

    I would say Dyslexia doens't affect intellgence at all, there is a totally normal range within dyslexic people... Education of dyslexics means that the middle to lower range simply crash and burn - even with top flight education and support - which I was lucky enoug to be party too.

    Bottom line for me was my desire to know about fairies... I wanted the content of books, so even when I could barely string to words together I was determined... I was 10 before I could tell the differnce betwene a b and D...and still struggle at times...

    What you can't see is the degree of concentration that becoems totally normal for a dyslexic to just function and a medium poor level.... to grief you have to talk from not very bright SJ types (of the less rounded category) who don't know how to contribute to an intellegent discussion beyond pedanticness. and yes I pitty them a bit for not being too bright (and that is not repreentative of all SJ's).

    I'd say your stats were severly skewed, not at all sure were you are picking them up from. From my education the only kids the Educations psycologists were interested in were the seriously bright ones (lab rats)... of which I was one.... I had my IQ measured every year, my areo spacials shocked the life out the testers. I was one of 10 kids in my prmary school t be tested, the rest weren't. So your stats may be misrepresenting reality somewhat....

    So in actual fact you are saying that dyslexia is NOT improving the quality of an other wise intellgent creative child... it has not contrubtion... The delusion is to devalue you own childs struggle to just get the absics and pass it off as a wonderful gift... GET A LIFE!

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