Tradition

[Kiddo]

What is the importance of tradition? Why is it so psychologically ingrained in some people's minds? Why is it mainly a sensor preference?

I look up the definition and it reads "an inherited pattern of thought or action." Inherited from who? What is the benefit of inheriting a thought instead of developing your own?

 

[substitute]

Traditions develop because they serve a purpose; they work. Good traditions are ones that are still serving their purpose well, and whose purpose is good, beneficial and clear to everyone.

Bad traditions are ones whose usefulness has passed and which no longer serve any real purpose, except a sense of security to those who fear change.

I think it could be that iNtuitives, by definition, tend usually to look behind/through/between, into the abstract and are therefore more likely to notice when a tradition has become bad. I think they might also be more likely to actually correctly diagnose when something is being done purely out of tradition. (edit - cue ptgatsby 'anything you can do we can do better' rant lol)

But even those bad traditions can still serve a different purpose - the sense of unity/community/harmony shared between those who observe it, and connectedness/rootedness in the (presumably good) past; a sense of continuity. edit - but that can then become a bad thing when that sense of community is based solely or predominantly on the observance of the tradition, meaning that those who don't or can't observe it are excluded from or devalued by the community.

I've thought about this quite a lot because of Si being the major tradition-oriented function, being my inferior, in order to make peace with my inferior I've had to make peace with tradition. I actually value it very much nowadays, though I used to scoff at it and undermine it wherever I could.

 

[Athenian200]

What is the importance of tradition? Why is it so psychologically ingrained in some people's minds? Why is it mainly a sensor preference?

I look up the definition and it reads "an inherited pattern of thought or action." Inherited from who? What is the benefit of inheriting a thought instead of developing your own?

Tradition was important historically before people had the ability to communicate on a more complex level. Knowing that you should/shouldn't do certain things without knowing why was the best you could do, as it allowed you to act in response to knowledge you didn't have, and thus increased your chance of survival. This information was passed down from one generation to another, much as it is today.

Assuming that it is a Sensor preference, I would suppose that it is because Sensors have a harder time formulating their own patterns of thought or action in response to what they understand, and tradition provides prefabricated ones so that they don't have to.

 

[substitute]

Tradition was important historically before people had the ability to communicate on a more complex level. .

You mean prehistorically, right? I mean, you're not suggesting that homo-sapiens was less intelligent and had less complex societies before the invention of atheism or the cellphone?

 

[Athenian200]

You mean prehistorically, right? I mean, you're not suggesting that homo-sapiens were less intelligent and had less complex societies before the invention of atheism or the cellphone?

Atheism isn't new. There were early Greek philosophers who held Atheistic views, particularly notable are Atomists such as Democritus.

But I would say that most societies before those of the Greeks tended to be less complex, and that they were much more intelligent than other peoples around them in many ways.

I would hardly say that about the cell phone, it's only improved communication speed, and made people more available to one another.

 

[substitute]

...

Um... one word: J.O.K.E.!!

I mean, I even put a smiley in and everything!


(another point on the athenian-is-xNTJ chart lol)

 

[Hypomanic]

I like athenian's answer. It makes sense, stop giving them a hard time.. what they said was cool.

 

[substitute]

I like athenian's answer. It makes sense, stop giving them a hard time.. what they said was cool.

Chill dude, I liked it too, I was just playing, she knows I like her

 

[Domino]

Traditions develop because they serve a purpose; they work. Good traditions are ones that are still serving their purpose well, and whose purpose is good, beneficial and clear to everyone.

Bad traditions are ones whose usefulness has passed and which no longer serve any real purpose, except a sense of security to those who fear change.

Just like laws.

 

[Hypomanic]

Chill dude, I liked it too, I was just playing, she knows I like her

Okay Neptune

Just don't spear me with your trident

 

[Athenian200]

Um... one word: J.O.K.E.!!

I mean, I even put a smiley in and everything!


(another point on the athenian-is-xNTJ chart lol)

Well, I interpreted the smiley as laughing at the idea rather than as indicating a joke. If you had used this one this one , or even this one , I would have known what you meant.

Are you determined to convince people I'm a fiercely competitive and argumentative cutthroat or something? What did I do to deserve this?

 

[substitute]

Okay Neptune

Just don't spear me with your trident

Um, it's King Lear...?

sheesh, it's one of those days for me I think...

 

[Kiddo]

Just like laws.

Good observation. I wonder if that is why traditional people are so much more prone to upholding the laws than the rest of general society. An SJ trait in addition to a love for tradition? I suppose that would be why strong SJ's call me an anarchist when I challenge their traditional beliefs.

I can see from substitute's answer that traditions do have benefits that I didn't see beforehand. And I can see from athenian's answer that they historically had significance and continue to do so. My question now, is when tradition goes bad or becomes useless, what is the most appropriate way to bring about necessary change in thought and action?

Are you determined to convince people I'm a fiercely competitive and argumentative cutthroat or something? What did I do to deserve this?

Oh we already knew that. What analytical INFJ isn't? That's why we love you.

 

[Hypomanic]

Um, it's King Lear...?

sheesh, it's one of those days for me I think...

He looks like Neptune, its not my fault that you have an unflattering picture of him. Also, it's not like I'm the one trying to cover my ass on the original convo saying that, 'Oh, they know I'm only joking.'

Well, I interpreted the smiley as laughing at the idea rather than as indicating a joke.

Heh.

 

[Athenian200]

Oh we already knew that. What analytical INFJ isn't? That's why we love you.

Please tell me you're kidding, Kiddo. If I come across like that, perhaps I shouldn't even come here anymore. That's definitely not how I want to be seen.

Just like laws.

Law itself is often a tradition. English common law is a good example of that. It's also part of why SJ's make good lawyers. Very insightful, PinkPiranha.

 

[substitute]

Well, I interpreted the smiley as laughing at the idea rather than as indicating a joke. If you had used this one this one , or even this one , I would have known what you meant.

Are you determined to convince people I'm a fiercely competitive and argumentative cutthroat or something? What did I do to deserve this?

Sorry, miscommunication, just forget I said anything, I didn't mean any harm, certainly meant no insult (everyone knows how I love xNTJ's and would never mean it as a bad thing if I said someone reminded me of them). Every damn thing's going wrong for me today so I should have just kept my big mouth shut. Sorry again, seriously. I think I'm just gonna go and hide in a hole now

 

[Hypomanic]

My question now, is when tradition goes bad or becomes useless, what is the most appropriate way to bring about necessary change in thought and action?

My guess is to become a member of the cabinet? Depending on the extent you wish to bring about change. Being a revolutionary has worked in the past, but that usually ends in assassination of the often ingenious leader (JFK, Lincoln, ...). Unfortunately, change takes time... a longgg time. Those of us who are intuitive enough to respect/foresee change, can only wait persistently as others catch on (or fail to do so).

Ultimately I suspect all I can do is respect the reforms that have made my life comfortable today, while I do my best to see that positive changes (that are under my control throughout my lifetime) are established. (Needless to say I'm just a college student... but this day will come, just thought I'd give my stance)

 

[Kiddo]

Please tell me you're kidding, Kiddo. If I come across like that, perhaps I shouldn't even come here anymore. That's definitely not how I want to be seen.

Oh come now. You can't control how people percieve you on the internet. If I have learned anything on these forums, it's that if you ever stand up for what you believe in or make others reconsider their argument, then somebody is going to consider you argumentative or rude. I like anyone who has the tenacity to challenge preconceptions.

 

[Hypomanic]

Oh come now. You can't control how people percieve you on the internet. If I have learned anything on these forums, it's that if you ever stand up for what you believe in or make others reconsider their argument, then somebody is going to consider you argumentative or rude. I like anyone who has the tenacity to challenge preconceptions.

That said, me too. It's respectable, it shows initiative.

 

[ptgatsby]

I think it could be that iNtuitives, by definition, tend usually to look behind/through/between, into the abstract and are therefore more likely to notice when a tradition has become bad. I think they might also be more likely to actually correctly diagnose when something is being done purely out of tradition. (edit - cue ptgatsby 'anything you can do we can do better' rant lol)

Not at all. S's ethnocentrism/dogma etc is an evolutionary advantage in groups, but it's decidedly not superior in the present day.

Think of it like the free market - Ss are blind actors inside the market, but the market works because of large scale dynamics. Ns are not as blind, thus leading to distortions in the macro picture, making it less efficient.

The difference is that technology growth over the last 2000 years has removed the original evolutionary reason for ethnocentrism - there is increasingly less value for the adherence to small geographical norms and an increase for alignment with value systems that can be quantified (ie: death of religion through an increase of objectivism, rationalism, humanism... or decrease of nationalism and an increase of non-geographical social networks). The new forms of tradition will grow from how it supports the tools we have - once upon a time the community required more social watchdogs, previous to written law... now we needs rules for how to handle information (ie: copyright) across hundreds of different sets of rules. Social changes are unable to keep up with the newest changes brought up by the information age - just wait till the bio age hits us... but it was the same tribal traditions that changed when the agrian age started.