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  1. #11
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamine View Post
    different teachers of mine described presence in the same way. Where you both cease to exist, and exist wholly. Where you are disconnected, but completely connected.
    Paradox is what you are describing. It comes naturally, to some.
    This may interest you. It's a quick list taken from Mihaly's article on The Creative Personality.

    The Paradoxes of Creative People:


    • Creative people have a great deal of physical energy, but they’re also often quiet and at rest.
    • Creative people tend to be smart yet naive at the same time. Another way of expressing this dialectic is the contrasting poles of wisdom and childishness.
    • Creative people combine playfulness and discipline, or responsibility and irresponsibility.
    • Creative people trend to be both extroverted and introverted.
    • Creative individuals, on the other hand, seem to exhibit both traits simultaneously.
    • Creative people are humble and proud at the same time.
    • Creative people, to an extent, escape rigid gender role stereotyping.
    • Creative people are both rebellious and conservative.
    • Creative people are very passionate about their work, yet they can be extremely objective about it as well.
    • Creative people’s openness and sensitivity often exposes them to suffering and pain, yet also to a great deal of enjoyment.
      Deep interest and involvement in obscure subjects often goes unrewarded, or even brings on ridicule.


    Full article can be found here:

    The Creative Personality | Psychology Today
    The future is for the unafraid.

  2. #12
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    They say 'flow' is happiness in its purest form. I've never experienced it myself, perhaps because I didn't have time to master my skillset yet. I like the concept, though I'm not entirely sure about its validity.
    One thing is certain: I disapprove of identifying religious experiences and oriental philosophy with this phenomenon.

    (it's Csíkszentmihályi, btw)

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Maybe the focus is what is different. You are not actually doing anything when having a satori experience, right? So, maybe the flow is kind of a satori, but more attainable for regular people since it is easier to lose yourself while doing something.
    That is how I see it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Paradox is what you are describing. It comes naturally, to some.
    This may interest you. It's a quick list taken from Mihaly's article on The Creative Personality.

    The Paradoxes of Creative People:


    • Creative people have a great deal of physical energy, but they’re also often quiet and at rest.
    • Creative people tend to be smart yet naive at the same time. Another way of expressing this dialectic is the contrasting poles of wisdom and childishness.
    • Creative people combine playfulness and discipline, or responsibility and irresponsibility.
    • Creative people trend to be both extroverted and introverted.
    • Creative individuals, on the other hand, seem to exhibit both traits simultaneously.
    • Creative people are humble and proud at the same time.
    • Creative people, to an extent, escape rigid gender role stereotyping.
    • Creative people are both rebellious and conservative.
    • Creative people are very passionate about their work, yet they can be extremely objective about it as well.
    • Creative people’s openness and sensitivity often exposes them to suffering and pain, yet also to a great deal of enjoyment.
      Deep interest and involvement in obscure subjects often goes unrewarded, or even brings on ridicule.


    Full article can be found here:

    The Creative Personality | Psychology Today
    That is a great article. Mihaly's book on creativity is quite interesting too.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Paradox is what you are describing. It comes naturally, to some.
    This may interest you. It's a quick list taken from Mihaly's article on The Creative Personality.

    The Paradoxes of Creative People:

    • Creative people have a great deal of physical energy, but they’re also often quiet and at rest.
    • Creative people tend to be smart yet naive at the same time. Another way of expressing this dialectic is the contrasting poles of wisdom and childishness.
    • Creative people combine playfulness and discipline, or responsibility and irresponsibility.
    • Creative people trend to be both extroverted and introverted.
    • Creative individuals, on the other hand, seem to exhibit both traits simultaneously.
    • Creative people are humble and proud at the same time.
    • Creative people, to an extent, escape rigid gender role stereotyping.
    • Creative people are both rebellious and conservative.
    • Creative people are very passionate about their work, yet they can be extremely objective about it as well.
    • Creative people’s openness and sensitivity often exposes them to suffering and pain, yet also to a great deal of enjoyment.
      Deep interest and involvement in obscure subjects often goes unrewarded, or even brings on ridicule.


    Full article can be found here:

    The Creative Personality | Psychology Today
    We, the creative, appear paradoxical to the uncreative because we perceive by making distinctions.

    By making distinctions, we are able to see. But the uncreative live in a one dimensional world and so are blind to creativity so it seems magical or paradoxical.

    So we see by making distinctions between -

    activity and rest,
    smart and naive,
    wisdom and childishness,
    responsibility and irresponsibility,
    playfulness and discipline,
    introversion and extroversion,
    humble and proud,
    masculine and feminine,
    rebellious and conservative,
    passionate and objective,
    pain and pleasure.

    Of course the one dimensional, the uncreative, are threatened by the creative and to defend their egos, they ridicule the creative.

    For instance I have been subject to ridicule and insults from the moment I arrived here more than 4,000 posts ago, even though I was invited to join by Geoff.

  5. #15
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The Paradoxes of Creative People.
    I have been here for more than 4,000 posts and not done the MBTI test. However out of curiosity I attended a qualified psychometrician in the Psychology Department of the Australian National University and she gave me two independent tests one week apart.

    The first test was an American test for introversion and extroversion. And the second test was a European test for introversion and extroversion.

    And I understood both had been double blind tested for reliability and validity, quite unlike MBTI.

    At the end of three weeks she had analysed the results and presented them to me.

    She said she was surprised by the results, so she had checked and double checked them.

    But she said she was confident of the result because it was identical in both independent tests.

    "What was it?", I asked.

    She answered, "You scored high in introversion and extroversion in both tests".

    "This is very unusual", she said.

    "What does it mean?", I asked.

    "Well, the only subjects who score high both in introversion and extroversion are the creative", she told me.

  6. #16
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    One thing is certain: I disapprove of identifying religious experiences and oriental philosophy with this phenomenon.
    Why? Isn't it reasonable to assume that any intense experience will be first written down by the mystics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For instance I have been subject to ridicule and insults from the moment I arrived here more than 4,000 posts ago, even though I was invited to join by Geoff.
    Don't be so hard on yourself. Self-pity isn't sexy. And Geoff's invitation might not equal to a fair welcome. You are creative, I believe you.

    BTW, I can't help reading it: "I arrived here more than 4000 years ago"

  7. #17
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    I experience this "Flow" when making art. I would define it as "controlled chaos"; but no definition bears repeating. It is undoubtedly a paradox, but anything outside of "Flow" would be defined as "Articulation" for me. Articulation is an intentional restructuring and reconsideration of initial thought/creation. The inexperienced do not dive into "Flow" because they lack confidence in their abilities, like a child dipping his toe into water before swimming. I sense that Victor flows when writing; and when I adopt his dialect, I flow too. However, plagiarism is theft, and theft snatches livelihood from the artist. So I will refrain.

    I don't intend to derail the topic, but here's one of the products of "Flow":


  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    "controlled chaos"
    Yeah, definitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I don't intend to derail the topic, but here's one of the products of "Flow"
    So detailed... I don't often do so sharp stuff when in flow. It's more like this:



    I kinda thought that is is not possible to do very detailed and complicated images with flow. So, you didn't derail the topic, that was good info there. (I might have derailed it now..)

  9. #19
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post

    I kinda thought that is is not possible to do very detailed and complicated images with flow. So, you didn't derail the topic, that was good info there. (I might have derailed it now..)
    Very good and pleasant to look at.

    When detailing, you must alternate between control and chaos, like a drummer doing drum-rolls. Eventually, the pattern becomes subconscious and transforms into a unified "flow". Even the long distance runner must adopt "flow", because he cannot afford to attend to his aching muscles or submit the fiery heat of the desert. A man cannot ration his doubts if he aspires to "flow". He must have the utmost faith that the tide will carry him with grace.

    Here is an excerpt from Orthodoxy by G.K. Chesterton:

    Let us begin, then, with the mad-house; from this evil and fantastic inn let us set forth on our intellectual journey. Now, if we are to glance at the philosophy of sanity, the first thing to do in the matter is to blot out one big and common mistake. There is a notion adrift everywhere that imagination, especially mystical imagination, is dangerous to man's mental balance. Poets are commonly spoken of as psychologically unreliable; and generally there is a vague association between wreathing laurels in your hair and sticking straws in it. Facts and history utterly contradict this view. Most of the very great poets have been not only sane, but extremely business-like; and if Shakespeare ever really held horses, it was because he was much the safest man to hold them. Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad, and cashiers; but creative artists very seldom. I am not, as will be seen, in any sense attacking logic: I only say that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination. Artistic paternity is as wholesome as physical paternity. Moreover, it is worthy of remark that when a poet really was morbid it was commonly because he had some weak spot of rationality on his brain. Poe, for instance, really was morbid; not because he was poetical, but because he was specially analytical. Even chess was too poetical for him; he disliked chess because it was full of knights and castles, like a poem. He avowedly preferred the black discs of draughts, because they were more like the mere black dots on a diagram. Perhaps the strongest case of all is this: that only one great English poet went mad, Cowper. And he was definitely driven mad by logic, by the ugly and alien logic of predestination. Poetry was not the disease, but the medicine; poetry partly kept him in health. He could sometimes forget the red and thirsty hell to which his hideous necessitarianism dragged him among the wide waters and the white flat lilies of the Ouse. He was damned by John Calvin; he was almost saved by John Gilpin. Everywhere we see that men do not go mad by dreaming. Critics are much madder than poets. Homer is complete and calm enough; it is his critics who tear him into extravagant tatters. Shakespeare is quite himself; it is only some of his critics who have discovered that he was somebody else. And though St. John the Evangelist saw many strange monsters in his vision, he saw no creature so wild as one of his own commentators. The general fact is simple. Poetry is sane because it floats easily in an infinite sea; reason seeks to cross the infinite sea, and so make it finite. The result is mental exhaustion, like the physical exhaustion of Mr. Holbein. To accept everything is an exercise, to understand everything a strain. The poet only desires exaltation and expansion, a world to stretch himself in. The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits.
    Flow.

  10. #20
    in-game Gamine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Paradox is what you are describing. It comes naturally, to some.
    This may interest you. It's a quick list taken from Mihaly's article on The Creative Personality.

    The Paradoxes of Creative People:
    This is definitely interesting to me. Many thanks!

    I have a longstanding fascination/obsession/abhorrance for contradictions. This is interesting to me on both an intellectual plane and a very personal one, as I am constantly/occasionally torn between trying to become more stable and fighting for my freedom and flexibility. It's nice to know I'm not alone

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    They say 'flow' is happiness in its purest form. I've never experienced it myself, perhaps because I didn't have time to master my skillset yet. I like the concept, though I'm not entirely sure about its validity.
    One thing is certain: I disapprove of identifying religious experiences and oriental philosophy with this phenomenon.

    (it's Csíkszentmihályi, btw)
    /Facepalm/ Thanks for pointing the spelling out, I've asked the mods to change it. What is your skillset in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Of course the one dimensional, the uncreative, are threatened by the creative and to defend their egos, they ridicule the creative.
    I believe that any person has the potential for creativity. I also believe that our greatest limits are the ones we set on ourselves, and the greatest hinderance to growth is fear. Fear of the unknown, of the new. We resist even the contemplation of change. With creativity, what is being created/processed is the very definition of unknown. It is a risk on the part of the person who created it, and a risk for the others in their social group to accept it. Nothing is free of consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I experience this "Flow" when making art. I would define it as "controlled chaos"; but no definition bears repeating. It is undoubtedly a paradox, but anything outside of "Flow" would be defined as "Articulation" for me. Articulation is an intentional restructuring and reconsideration of initial thought/creation. I don't intend to derail the topic, but here's one of the products of "Flow":
    Loved it!


    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Yeah, definitely.

    So detailed... I don't often do so sharp stuff when in flow. It's more like this:
    I kinda thought that is is not possible to do very detailed and complicated images with flow. So, you didn't derail the topic, that was good info there. (I might have derailed it now..)
    Beautiful! What were you thinking of? Each of those pictures look like they are moving to me.

    No, I wanted this OP to be nice an open. Go with the flow.

    I wonder what is happening in the brain when someone is experiencing this. Anyone have anything on that?

    I usually shy from sharing personal stuff, but I think it applies (plus, what kind of person would I be if I didn't make an attempt to derail my own thread? Oh the shame! )

    I fall into it, before I had the vocabulary Csikszentmihalyi and others have given me I always thought of it as falling down the rabbit hole. That the experience was akin to becoming the White Rabbit; being pulled by a deadline of expectation external to itself, frantic and resolved through a violation of sensations. That upon looking back at the journey I just took (emotionally, mentally, physically, creatively) would be like watching the White Rabbit, or trying to chase it as Alice did. Either that or I need to stop thinking about Lewis Carrol.

    It is the peace/excitement I find through performing. Whether planned or improvised, through instruments or acting, through singing or dancing... but not all performances are equal and not all result in this sensation. I only find it when I risk something, when I give up a bit of my honesty to who I am performing for. I have to lose a piece of me to gain that depth of connection.

    Connecting to strangers on a micro basis gives me a chunk of Flow, in the same way a smell recalls a memory.

    More questions, can this experience be related to something being created honestly? Can it be forced? If it is forced, does it have the same value?
    "Beware Those Who Are ALWAYS READING BOOKS" - Bukowski

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