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  1. #51
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRick View Post
    I'm not sure about the eleventh - what could a societial norm be defined as? There are obviously some societial norms (such as 'murder is a serious crime') which you'd obviously accept straight off. Also, what do you mean by 'at face value'?
    I too agree that murder is a serious crime

    But then there's lot of value judgements that people repeat amongst themselves without studying them; like that a job where you take care of people must be more valuable than one where you take care of machines, because people are more valuable than machines. Disagreement is handled by emphatetic counter-claim, "would you like to be left untreated, dieing on the street?"

    (Yet there can be ineffective treatment, or some person's involvement in the treatment outcome may be very small. It may be that some other job increases people's wellbeing more by reducing risks of accidents, etc.)

    Then norms. What I thought of as norms is that "a decent person stays quiet in the bus." or "it's ok to be loud an obnoxious on friday night" or "employed person should be appreciated more than an unemployed one". Some of those might be true to some extent more often than not.. but they're still something far from something to be universally agreed upon. Yet many people would gladly accept such norms without giving them a second thought.

    Face value: apparent value, intended value. Or that's what I intended it to mean

  2. #52
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Common Sense.
    Initial analysis, a part of logic, basic logical processes.

    It is common sense to tie your shoe laces so the leftover parts of your shoe laces aren't so long that you trip over them. It's also logical to do that too.

    In terms of types that have common sense I'd say it's entirely context sensitive. An INTP can totally miss a detail like tying their shoe laces, esp tying them "right", but an INTP who focuses on the task would logically deduce a sensible way of doing it even if it's not common sense, the accepted result of an analysis of the task at hand.

    You could argue that STs would be best at common sense as they would more readily accept common practices into their thinking but that's also dependant upon the circumstances. My friend (ISTJ) will wear slippers outside of the house. To him it's a matter of what he was wearing when he decided to come out but it'd be more inline with common sense and logic to change your footwear so as not to bring in dirt with your slipper and also if it rains he's going to soak his slippers and his feet!

    It may be that INTJs have the most common sense as they are always right
    However when you find one doing things perfectly when all that is required and indeed wanted is an adequate solution, that's not using their common sense to restrict their solution to what is necessary. It's going over the top.

    Hell even the definition of common sense is context sensitive, as has been mentioned. It could be representative of the standard solution or it could represent merely thinking more about a task before leaping in "if you'd used a bit of common you would have noticed that...."
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #53
    Senior Member DaRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    I too agree that murder is a serious crime

    But then there's lot of value judgements that people repeat amongst themselves without studying them; like that a job where you take care of people must be more valuable than one where you take care of machines, because people are more valuable than machines. Disagreement is handled by emphatetic counter-claim, "would you like to be left untreated, dieing on the street?"

    (Yet there can be ineffective treatment, or some person's involvement in the treatment outcome may be very small. It may be that some other job increases people's wellbeing more by reducing risks of accidents, etc.)

    Then norms. What I thought of as norms is that "a decent person stays quiet in the bus." or "it's ok to be loud an obnoxious on friday night" or "employed person should be appreciated more than an unemployed one". Some of those might be true to some extent more often than not.. but they're still something far from something to be universally agreed upon. Yet many people would gladly accept such norms without giving them a second thought.

    Face value: apparent value, intended value. Or that's what I intended it to mean
    I don't necessarily have these commonly-held viewpoints, although it is inarguable that, from an economic perspective, an employed person would contribute more to the GDP of a nation than an unemployed person will, due to their productivity. The one about the bus could also form because annoying other passengers is not considered to be courteous. Life is also commonly held as the greatest priority in a pro-life society, which may be aided by integrated religious beliefs (i.e - my Catholic faith). So I do understand how these social norms form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    It is common sense to tie your shoe laces so the leftover parts of your shoe laces aren't so long that you trip over them. It's also logical to do that too.
    In terms of types that have common sense I'd say it's entirely context sensitive. An INTP can totally miss a detail like tying their shoe laces, esp tying them "right".
    I miss this specific detail initially, but I rectify it as soon as I can see it. I see myself as fairly observant, but I tend to miss minor details, while the rest of my family don't.

    You could argue that STs would be best at common sense as they would more readily accept common practices into their thinking but that's also dependant upon the circumstances.
    Probably true. My ISTP father and ISTJ brother are great exponents of common sense. This is one of the main reasons why I changed from an ISTJ to an INTJ - I struggle to use common sense properly on a regular basis.

    It may be that INTJs have the most common sense as they are always right.
    However, I certainly don't remember thinking like this. The amount of common sense in INTJ's seems to vary. There are one or two INTJ's I know who use common sense well, but there are others who don't (like me).

    However when you find one doing things perfectly when all that is required and indeed wanted is an adequate solution, that's not using their common sense to restrict their solution to what is necessary. It's going over the top.
    Yes, this sounds like me. Expending a ridiculous amount of energy and frustrating myself doing a seemingly menial task, just so I can do it 'my way' perfectly (i.e - writing a lot while solving a problem when all that was required was a few concise sentences. ).
    MBTI: INFJ (I: 100% N:58% F: 58% J: 84%)
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  4. #54
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRick View Post
    ...Yes, this sounds like me. Expending a ridiculous amount of energy and frustrating myself doing a seemingly menial task, just so I can do it 'my way' perfectly...
    I used to be like this, too! I am so thankful I can say "used to" because I have learned so much from my ISTP husband about balancing out time effectiveness and perfection (which doesn't actually exist anyway).

    When I think about how frustrated I used to get about the smallest things - even to the point of tears!

    I remember crying in frustration because I was chopping a carrot to put in a homemade soup. I thought it was incumbent upon me to make each slice of carrot of equal width. As I worked my way toward the narrow end of the carrot, the equal width no longer seemed equitable, so I switched over to making each slice equal in "mass". I became upset because I was sure I wasn't doing it perfectly.

    I remember the day I scored a great victory when I was able to - without any regret - hold a mushroom in my hand over the pot and just cut it up any which way into my spaghetti sauce!

  5. #55
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I remember the day I scored a great victory when I was able to - without any regret - hold a mushroom in my hand over the pot and just cut it up any which way into my spaghetti sauce!
    But that's not fair! Some people will get larger slices of mushrooms than others! Nutritional intake would have been inequitable, especially if you did not control the number of mushroom slices issued per serving. :steam:

  6. #56
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    But that's not fair! Some people will get larger slices of mushrooms than others! Nutritional intake would have been inequitable, especially if you did not control the number of mushroom slices issued per serving. :steam:
    Sorry. I'm not putting that albatross back around my neck!

  7. #57
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    INTJMom,
    I'm guessing that cooking is not a form of relief and relaxation to you then. :eek:

    Note to self, never invite INTJMom round she'd have a coronary on the door step.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #58
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INTJMom,
    I'm guessing that cooking is not a form of relief and relaxation to you then. :eek:

    Note to self, never invite INTJMom round she'd have a coronary on the door step.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_ That was very amusing!

    Seriously, I laughed really hard. No, it's not a form of relief or relaxation. I am a pretty good cook though, as far as my food tasting good. I'm just a basic meat and potatoes kind of cook which I guess is just as well since a couple of my kids are fussy. I prefer a meal that only takes about 30 minutes or less to prepare.

  9. #59
    Senior Member DaRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I used to be like this, too! I am so thankful I can say "used to" because I have learned so much from my ISTP husband about balancing out time effectiveness and perfection (which doesn't actually exist anyway).

    When I think about how frustrated I used to get about the smallest things - even to the point of tears!

    I remember crying in frustration because I was chopping a carrot to put in a homemade soup. I thought it was incumbent upon me to make each slice of carrot of equal width. As I worked my way toward the narrow end of the carrot, the equal width no longer seemed equitable, so I switched over to making each slice equal in "mass". I became upset because I was sure I wasn't doing it perfectly.

    I remember the day I scored a great victory when I was able to - without any regret - hold a mushroom in my hand over the pot and just cut it up any which way into my spaghetti sauce!
    Amusing, although I can identify with what you are saying about absolute perfectionism. It makes me wonder whether INTJ's, by nature, suffer from a mild form of obsessive-complusive disorder...not to be offensive or anything.
    MBTI: INFJ (I: 100% N:58% F: 58% J: 84%)
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  10. #60
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    :yim_rolling_on_the_ That was very amusing!

    Seriously, I laughed really hard. No, it's not a form of relief or relaxation. I am a pretty good cook though, as far as my food tasting good. I'm just a basic meat and potatoes kind of cook which I guess is just as well since a couple of my kids are fussy. I prefer a meal that only takes about 30 minutes or less to prepare.
    Meals that take longer than 30 minutes seem to require the same dedication as the birch twig form of relaxation. Personally I'll only be in the kitchen for more than 30 minutes if there's loud music on and no one else in the house.

    My personal cheat with cooking (aside from frozen pizza ) is casserole. For some reason it's the one thing I do well though I dislike cooking and so don't really exercise this talent more often than is absolutely necessary.

    Oh and I'm glad you can laugh at it. I was actually quite worried you'd have my head for that joke.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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